[reggie_woic]

--birth?
--some have argued onset of conception
--some claim that eggs and sperm are alive already
--and others (this one i find interesting) argue development of brain activity,
coz technically even while having everything else functioning you're pretty much dead w/o it.

i guess what i'm trying to ask is: when is abortion not considered "killing" or "murder"?

[barb]

when does life begin.....well it depends reggie,
to the pro-choice believers it begins at live birth
to the pro-life, it begins at conception, but then again it doesnt always work like this coz conception doesnt necessarily result in pregnancy.

[Nikio Ndoka]

Originally Posted by reggie_woic

--birth?
--some have argued onset of conception
--some claim that eggs and sperm are alive already
--and others (this one i find interesting) argue development of brain activity,
coz technically even while having everything else functioning you're pretty much dead w/o it.

i guess what i'm trying to ask is: when is abortion not considered "killing" or "murder"?

I am not trying to offer any answer but will surely like to follow this thread closely.

As you said it can be argued that sperms and over are already living and hence using juala in a way is abortion (like aborting a flight due to bad weather he he)

To add a question relevant to the thread I hope:- if one of your legs is rotting and if left unchecked may result to long time suffering would you rather lose just a part of your body than risk your life?? this is the way I look at it

[ATLian]

Birth!

I know very many women would sacrifice their lives to save the life of their child. I don't know many women who would sacrifice their lives to save the life of their unborn fetus. If you told most women that they will definitely die unless they get an abortion, most women would take the abortion option. Even in societies where abortion is illegal, and among people who are anti-abortion, the one time they allow abortion is when the woman's life is in jeopardy. Clearly we can't equate the life of a living child or human being to that of a fetus. I believe that the "life begins at conception" garbage is just stuff said by the anti-abortionists to make all who are pro-choice look like evil sinners.

[reggie_woic]

this really is a tough topic, but birth? really? what about a few days before birth...surely losing a 'baby' at 8 months is alot more depressing than losing it at 1 and a half months?

[kelly]

Originally Posted by reggie_woic

--birth?
--some have argued onset of conception
--some claim that eggs and sperm are alive already
--and others (this one i find interesting) argue development of brain activity,
coz technically even while having everything else functioning you're pretty much dead w/o it.

i guess what i'm trying to ask is: when is abortion not considered "killing" or "murder"?

I believe life begins at conception.

Putting that aside, doctors usually say a fetus is viable at around 24 weeks old (give or take or thereabouts) which is around 5/6 month period.

Viable here means that if the baby has to be born at this time then he/she can be kept alive by use of modern machines until they are able to breath on there own without intervention.

To the OP (reggie) the reason why brain activity comes into play is because at this time the babies brain has already finished forming but the lungs are still immature thus the need for machines for breathing.

If the baby is born before this period the brain is not fully formed and hence the baby would not survive outside the womb.

Any other takers?

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by reggie_woic

this really is a tough topic, but birth? really? what about a few days before birth...surely losing a 'baby' at 8 months is alot more depressing than losing it at 1 and a half months?

It definitely is. Just like losing anything you've worked longer for is harder than losing something you've worked just a little time for. I think that we will never agree on when birth begins, since both sides define the beginning in a way that suits them. So let's compare how people value the born vs the unborn by going back to my argument of sacrificing your wife or your child.

Before that fetus is born, you do not know it. If you were given a choice where it's going to be born then your wife will surely die - or you can abort it, I guarantee you most people would chose to abort. This is your wife, the woman you've known and loved for many years, the woman you chose from the millions available, the woman you live with, the mother of your other kids, etc. The fetus is still an unknown person. BUT, if it's your 3 year old child you're talking about, then many people would give up their lives to save their child.

That shows that there is a lot more value attached to the life of the already born child versus the unborn one. If these people truly believed that life begun at conception, then they would fight for and die for fetuses in the same way they'd fight for and die for living children. But we know that clearly isn't the case. I don't know of any scenario where a civilized society can tell a parent that he can go ahead and kill his 2 year old baby girl - but we can name many scenarios where the same society would okay the parent to abort a female fetus.

[barb]

[quote=kelly;722453]I believe life begins at conception.


I choose to dispute your belief kelly.....most of the time the zygote doesnt always implant in the uterus but simply washes out in the next menstrual cycle......so if i choose to go with your belief then that would basically mean that lives of unborn zygotes and fetuses are being lost sometimes even without the knowledge of the woman!!!!!!

[Ester]

Originally Posted by ATLian

Birth!

Birth?! Wow, that's a first. Even the most avid pro-choicers would agree that a fetus in its third trimester is "fully human." So why do people who kill pregnant women get charged with two counts of murder; but just killing the child is considered a woman's choice?

By the way, you got kids? married?? Just curious....

[Wantai]

Conception for me.

I know that the Animal Kingdom is different from the Plant Kingdom, but if you sow a seed, you have to water and nurture it to grow well; rain is a bonus. In the same light I look at the spem and the egg meeting, a life is formed, the foetus sucks from its mother through the umbilical cord for nutrients until it grows hopefully into full term.

This is the reason why i don't even like to imagine what those old copper IUDs (Intra uterine Devices) do, forget the modern hormone-laced ones because i believe that hormones play a part. The old ones i think of as "abortion" coz they do not necessarily prevent the meeting of the egg and the sperm (though they sometimes do), they simply destroy what was formed early enough by preventing implatation onto the uterus wall.

They do prevent pregnancy yes, but not always the union of the egg and the sperm. The other barrier contaception methods actually prevent (we all know that not always) the meeting of egg and sperm... like condoms, diaphragm, cervical cap etc.

Yeah...so conception for me.