[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

But Mormons have no limitation on how many women one should marry! no conditions either! In mormons religion one can marry 100 women, 70 women, dont you see that this is another problem? but in Islam we have limitation, one cant marry more than four. On top of that there is a condition, that one must be able to deal with them justly as the verse mention, do Morons have this condition? no, so Islam solution is a uniquely.

What if someone isn't satisfied with only 4 women, or explain to me how 4 wives is the delicate balance that would offset the man-to-woman ratio. Is it true that Prophet Muhammad had more than 4 wives? (not trying to argue, i'm just asking)

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

How long does this togetherness of musics and sports last? Players, leaders of sports club their togetherness end when one of them move to another club,let alone supporters!
As for Musicians when one goes solo or sign to another recording company then its over! But Islam it is not like that! We are together from the beginning of the life to the end.
when one dies we burry him without asking any cent in case if he didnt leave money and it is a duty of all Muslims around to burry him, if they dont do, then they are guilty. etc so islamic is a unique.

Muhammad, now you're dealing with theory. Theoretically, Muslims will be together eternally. Practically, we don't see it, (Sunni vs Shi'a). Besides, is the togertheness to do with Islam, or to do with the fact that they're family?

Theoretically, Sports and Music does hold people together.

Theoretically, ALL OTHER RELIGIONS, hold people together.

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

Islam is a religion of social justice. Therefore zakah (Charity)is one of the pillars of Islam. Allah commands:
“And establish the prayer (salah) and pay the obligatory charity (zakah).” Quran 73:20
The amount should be given for example to the poor , the people with debts, etc. You can see that Islam helps the needy in order that they feed their families and have a proper (halal) way of living. With the zakah (Charity) the poor people get enough and will not resort to any form of illegal business or commit crimes in order to get food or satisfy their basic needs. We realize that Islam is based on humanitarian and just system of life.
Another big problem is the high criminal rate in many countries. Many people want to have a lot of wealth and therefore indulge in thefts, robberies, graft and corruption, etc. It is a sad fact that many youth are becoming thieves in order to buy expensive clothes, cars, etc.
The western societies can’t prevent them from doing such things, because they don’t offer the youth other ideals. For example they could say that wealth is not the solution for everything. But instead of that everyone defines himself through money. The western societies can’t prevent many of the people from becoming criminals, because the criminals are not afraid from the police men. If the police catches them they will be questioned and after that they can often leave the police office without any sort of punishment. Or if they will be punished, they will be made to stay in jail for days or so, which to them is nothing. It’s just an additional experience for them. Others will even take it a holiday for them. How can the criminals know that they commit a big sin? In an Islamic society everyone should know the consequence:
Aisha (r.a.) reported Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.s.) cut off the hand of a thief for a quarter of a dinar and upwards. (Bukhari and Muslim)
So, Islam is the only solution.

Please tell me how the western societies' problems can't be solved if they say, reverted to Eastern Christianity, or Buddhism, or Hinduism.

[Muhammad_4]

what if someone isn't satisfied with only 4 women, or explain to me how 4 wives is the delicate balance that would offset the man-to-woman ratio.

it is not the matter of satisfying men`s desire! if each and every man get what he wish in islam where is the justice there?!

is it true that prophet muhammad had more than 4 wives? (not trying to argue, i'm just asking)

yes ,he had more than 4 wives. I repeat myself what i said early.when he was twenty-five years old he married for the first time. His wife, khadijah, was fifteen years older than he. She remained the only wife of the prophet for the next twenty-five years, until she died (may allah be pleased with her). Only after her death, did the prophet marry other women.his later marriages were for various reasons. Some marriages were with the view to help the women whose husbands had been killed while they were defending their faith. Others were with a view to cement relationships with devoted followers like abu bakr, may allah be pleased with him. Yet others were to build bridges with various tribes who were otherwise at war with the muslims. When the prophet became their relative through marriage, their hostilities calmed down, and much bloodshed was averted.

muhammad, now you're dealing with theory. Theoretically, muslims will be together eternally. Practically, we don't see it, (sunni vs shi'a). Besides, is the togertheness to do with islam, or to do with the fact that they're family?

i do not understand what do you mean sunni vs shia! do you know what is sunni and what is shia! (if you wish i can explain to you) if you think that differences of opinions doesnt occur among muslims (not islam), then you have misunderstood the whole meaning of togetherness! i do not think that all fans of same club would have same opinion on who is their best player of all time in their club.

please tell me how the western societies' problems can't be solved if they say, reverted to eastern christianity, or buddhism, or hinduism.

this is a good question. I would like to take europe as a typical example for a western society.the european continent is dominated by the christian religion. 46% of the population of the european union are catholics, 22% are protestants and 29% are without any religion. Now, here we can exclude christianity and secularism as a solution, because these people majority are christians and secularist and they didnt find the solution to their problems from the religion (not an attack) and secularism. As for hinduism.take a country like india, women there are suffering from many disabilities and social injustice and this is due to the directly influence by hinduism beliefs such as marriage and inheritance (these are not my words, you can read a book hinduism and the status of women by jayaram v).the result has been that indian women are ranked high in terms of number of prostitutes in the world. This is only one problem out of many. So to put hinduism as a solution to westerners is unfair in all kinds of forms. The calamities of buddhism: are many but look at this one . They are not engage themselves in social work, you see yourself that these people have done almost nothing in this field. The buddhist thinks that escape from suffering is one's own personal row to hoe. He wouldn't dream of interfering with someone else's problems. The buddhist has a fatalistic view of life; suffering is part of life — it cannot be removed. Each person must find his own way of escape and not worry about other people. Buddha taught that the only way to rid oneself of selfish desire was through self-effort. For centuries his followers have tried to stay on the eightfold path, but many have found that "the heart is deceitful above all things … and beyond cure. Who can stand it? again, the solution of westerners can not be buddhism.

[Type R]

Originally Posted by Ni_Diambo

@BMJ
This is what we are trying to extract from Mohammed. But he’s apparently going in circles avoiding it. Clearly identifying THE Problem, THE Solution and explaining HOW THE solution addresses THE Problem. That seems very clear to me.

Muhamad's problem is that he obtained the solution before he had a problem. So he goes around looking for problems to apply his solution to.

However, let us indulge him.

Islam proposes that it is a way of life, so we can evaluate it at the theoretical and practical levels. 'Theoretical' amounts to convincing me as to the soundness of a specified means of action. 'Practical' involves examining countries where Islam has been implemented, and seeing whether the stipulated proposals have borne the intended fruits.

To avoid running all over the place like a chicken with its tail on fire, let us focus on three areas raised by Muhamad: -

1) eligible male-to-eligible female ratio, and its effect upon marriage opportunities

2) racism

3) alcoholism

Male/Female ratio and marriage

It is true that more males seem to fall by the wayside in life, despite the fact that more male babies are born (worldwide). I have never seen an analysis done on, say, the 20-40 year old age group, but the trends do not favour women. As you say, Muhamad, the male population seems to have a higher incidence of problems: -

* homosexuality
* general delinquency (miraa-chewing layabouts come to mind)
* prisoners
* insanity

These seem to afflict the male population more.

Furthermore, the "financial stability" criterion narrows down the field even more. Most women do not want to marry "horizontally" or "downwards." The few men who make into seniority - be it in business, politics, music, sports - find that they have many willing women accessible to them.

On the other hand, the reverse problem is also possible: too many men for women. This is a phenomenon that is happening right now in Asia, especially China and India (Read).

The Islamic "solution" therefore tends to favour men who can sustain more than one marriage, ie men who are either rich or have good romantic skills. It is applicable in societies where there may be a female population bias, but is meaningless in modern China and India, where the bias is on the male side. A poor man, or a socially-challenged man, or - as is common in Arab countries with arranged marriages - a nobody-man from a lacklustre-name clan, may be victimised by the tendency of rich powerful or smooth men to scoop up several women.

Polygamy is not uniquely Islamic. Many Africans - Maasai, Samburu, even urban Africans (for example, Mrs M'mukindia, MD of NOCK is a second wife, and she spoke about it to journalists).

Does Islam address the male bias population? Does it allow polyandry?

Getting to the point

The problem with you, Muhamad, is that you are still doing exactly what we asked you not to do: fight against Christianity in order to prove Islam. Your polygamy point is actually a subtle Koran-vs-Bible war, but you don't want to say it (so I will!!!) [you have a problem with honesty]

Let us take a look at the Bible: -

Exodus 21:10 "If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights."

Deuteronomy 21:15 "If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons...."

Kings Solomon and David, and Rehoboam had several wives, without censure from God. So no problem there.

The issues arise in the New Testament: -

Matthew 19:9 "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Jesus)

1 Timothy 3:2 "Now the bishop must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach." (Paul)

1 Timothy 3:12 "A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well." (Paul)

From this verse, you can see that those who are fighting Xtianity on account of polygamy, may be fighting monsters that exist only in their imagination.

[ernestombayo7]

]Problem with muhammed is he assumes everyone is a christian,then goes ahead to try to provce islam by discrediting christianity.

Can't you try and prove islam on its own merit.without going,"the bible says this n that..."

Why start a thread with the topic ,"Islam is the only solution..." when your continuously puutting in bible verses.

And as many have already pointed out.there is nothing new that you have suggested cannot be implemented by other beliefs.eg polygamy.polygamy is practiced in over well over 200 tribes in the world.It was practiced before Islam,and its still practiced until now.

Someone only needs to go to Saudi Arabia or Iran to see what a typical islamic state is like:-

1.No freedom of press
2.no freedom of expression.
3.no freedom of religion
4.no rights for women ( Women still cant drive in Saudi Arabia)

[BMJ]

[quote=Muhammad_4;698034]But Mormons have no limitation on how many women one should marry! no conditions either! In mormons religion one can marry 100 women, 70 women, dont you see that this is another problem? but in Islam we have limitation, one cant marry more than four. On top of that there is a condition, that one must be able to deal with them justly as the verse mention, do Morons have this condition? no, so Islam solution is a uniquely.

Mormons! NOT Morons! Even if you do not have respect for others, at least please try to keep that to yourself!

[Type R]

2.

Problem: Racism.

Solution: tell everybody to "treat everybody equal."

This simplicity borders on inanity!!!

Elsewhere, the "solution" to homosexuality is to kill homosexuals. Why don't we kill racists too? Or why don't we simply tell homos, "be attracted to the opposite sex."

Arab Muslims have a long and "rich" heritage of racism, and no one can testify better than Africans. In fact, it is offensive for any Muslim to pretend to preach against racism in Africa, given their track record. Arab Muslims have as much contempt for "Aswads" as any other racist in any part of the world. It seems Islam's "solution" is ineffective. Slaves, eunuchs - that's is what we "Aswads" represent in the Arab Muslim mind.

Muhamad, in case of doubt or disbelief, read about your namesake "Tippu Tip" (real name: Hemedi bin Muhammad el Marjebi). It seems Islam was a very ineffective "solution" in his case, very ineffective: he practised major racist slavery.

The campaign to end the slave trade started in England, not Saudi Arabia.

[Ni_Diambo]

It is the training, guys. Mohammed is not the first one I’m locking horns with. With all due respect, all Muslims that I have engaged with start with these words: “We also love Jesus, he is one of our great prophets.” Followed by “The Bible is corrupted and cannot be trusted as the Word of God.”

So if you happen to be a Christian, as most Kenyans are, you are already thrown on the defensive, discussing Christianity – on his terms! And many Muslims STUDY the Bible more than most Christians. Their focus is to fish out all ‘real’ and apparent discrepancies.

So Mohammed finds himself in unfamiliar territory. Forced to leave Christianity alone and justify his faith, he’s lost.

[Type R]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

I do not believe you, how can any Muslim who knows his religion behave like that while the Quran says: 29:46 And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner)..."
How many verses like this should I give to you?!

You contradict yourself. First, you provide a quote that justifies "don't believe you" but the quote itself contains a caveat, a condition under which you may "behave like that" ... and you personally behave like that anyway.

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

.. to mention few: take America, Scandinavia countries and almost all african countries women are more than men on top of that,90% of prisoners are men, those who go out and fight are men, there are millions of gays (america). So if every man would marry only one wife do you know how many women goes un married? this is big problem. So in Islam you find a solution:Quran 4:3 "......then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice".

....

it is not the matter of satisfying men`s desire! if each and every man get what he wish in islam where is the justice there?!

Let me bring to the attention of non-Muslims an exception in Islam that Muhammad seems to cleverly avoid: maids. It seems that you can sleep with your maid legally in Islam: -

Sura 23:1,5-6 "Successful indeed are the believers .. who guard their modesty. You don't have to be modest around your wives or your slave girls that your right hands possess."

Sura 70:30 " (They have relations) only with their spouses, or what is legally theirs."

In addition to numerous wives, the prophet is also on record of having married a young girl, probably aged 6. Consummation with Aisha happened at 9 yrs old. Islam has no lower limit "solution" on the age of consent of a minor. He also had relationships with Aisha's maids, and maids of other wives. I am not criticising, just stating historical facts and details on the proposed "solution."

Therefore, both in word and in deed, we have several strange "solutions."

[ghost rider]

If Islam was the answer,the Twin towers would not have gone down in the name of Allah,the August 7 bombings would not have happened and Osama bin Laden would be working together with the likes of Bill Gates to end poverty.I think the radicalism advocated for in Islam is what makes it less appealing to non-Muslims

[Muhammad_4]

Originally Posted by R type

Islam has no lower limit "solution" on the age of consent of a minor.

Show me where in the Bible can I find age limitation for marriage! Are you going to say 3 Years and some months? (numbers 31:17-18)

Originally Posted by ghost reader

If Islam was the answer,the Twin towers would not have gone down in the name of Allah,the August 7 bombings would not have happened.

Can you bring the proof that it was a work of Muslims? there are many theories circulating around, how could you be convinced that it was a work of Muslims? please share with us.

Originally Posted by Type R

Let me bring to the attention of non-Muslims an exception in Islam that Muhammad seems to cleverly avoid: maids. It seems that you can sleep with your maid legally in Islam: -Sura 23:1,5-6 "Successful indeed are the believers .. who guard their modesty. You don't have to be modest around your wives or your slave girls that your right hands possess."
Sura 70:30 " (They have relations) only with their spouses, or what is legally theirs."

This is what Quran says:
Quran 23:5- 6 And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts) Except from their wives or that their right hands possess, for then, they are free from blame;
Quran 70:30. Except with their wives and the whom their right hands possess, for (then) they are not to be blamed",
Does "their right hands possess" mean maids?! please enlighten us "Mufti" Type R

Elsewhere, the "solution" to homosexuality is to kill homosexuals. Why don't we kill racists too? Or why don't we simply tell homos, "be attracted to the opposite sex."

First you should look at the Bible on which reson human being become lesbians and homosexual: The Good News Bible says:Roman 1:25-27
They exchange the truth about God for a lie; they worship and serve what God has created instead of the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever! Amen. Because they do this, God has given them over to shameful passions. Even the women pervert the natural use of their sex by unnatural acts (lesbianism). In the same way the men give up natural sexual relations with women and burn with passion for each other (homosexuals). Men do shameful things with each other, and as a result they bring upon themselves the punishment they deserve for

Originally Posted by Type R

The campaign to end the slave trade started in England, not Saudi Arabia.

In which year?!