[grip_daddy]

Grip, what are the consequences of the fall (Adam and Eve's sin)?

Death. The life we now have is a temporal provision God has allowed us through in order to demonstrate His love.

[bBecause] Moses was born with a corrupt nature in a fallen world. You can't say the same for Adam who was chilling with God in the Garden.
[/b]

God can still hide Himself as He does now.

They're not in hell, they're in hades. Hell (Lake of fire) doesn't exist yet and won't exist until after the final judgement.


Hell and hades are synonyms meaning a dark place, sometimes translated grave.

INo. You're separating God from Love and saying the latter controls the former. God is Love.


God is love, love is NOT God. God is merciful, merciful is not God. God is gracious, gracious is not God. God is immortal, immortal is not God. Examples are very many.

Grip, if an engine runs on oil, and the engine is useless without oil, does that mean that oil didn't exist before the engine was made?

God's existence does not depend on love. On the contrary, existence of love depends on God.



How do you cease to be Kenyan in order to kill her?


Not a perfect example. But still, God killing sinners does not mean He will cease being love, not at all. On the contrary, it will demonstrate His love, mercy, and justice.

If God was to leave things as they are, then that would mean he'd have to leave creation and man in this fallen corrupted state.

That's why there is a judgment day and reward both for the righteous and the wicked.

Which means he shouldn't have undertaken the salvation plan in the first place.


If Jesus died so that we should not die, why was He punished? Salvation plan also shows how the end shall be. Those who rejected His punishment and death shall be punished and die, whereas those who accepted His punishment and death on their behalf shall live.

(Do you see how these things are inter-connected? The church fathers dealt with this from each and every possible angle, any other interpretation is consistent with who God is).


It is not impossible to err from the faith.

Grip, on the one hand, you have the Tradition of the Church Fathers, which (by the way, was used to determine the New Testament Canon) and on the other hand, you have the Tradition of the Jehovah's Witnesses, who's teachings rely pretty much on one man. That's a very easy choice for me.


Pharasees that read widely the scriptures in the synagogue also held some beliefs outside those of the very scriptures. Read Jesus' constant rebuke on them. I'm not relying on Jehova Witnesses interpretation of the bible, but on careful and critical analysis of the same bible giving non denominational approach to it. More often than not, I tend to agree with Adventist teachings.

Grip, you have refused to understand the position. The torment isn't caused by God, it is self-inflicted, caused by man on himself.

It is possible for God to get rid of the sinners while you are hell bent to deny God of that possibility thanks to Him being love.

[b]God IS Love.

Love is not God!

What if those "philosophies and mythologies" were the standard by which the Bible (you cherish so much) was determined?

They also rejected some scripts which would readily frontier their current teachings including but not limited to the Revelation of Peter and Paul. Those scripts could have contradicted the teachings of the Old Testament Law and Prophets. Thank God they canonized the Testament according to God's requirement but not their philosophical "truths".

[Type R]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

God is above all those I have mentioned above. Actually, He takes you seriously to the point of NUMBERING (not counting) your hair!

"He" can actually do all this and more half-asleep.

Intel, computer programmers, these people struggle with details. Intel is not omniscient.

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by Type R

"He" can actually do all this and more half-asleep.

Intel, computer programmers, these people struggle with details. Intel is not omniscient.

So there is nothing absurd about it. He does it out of care and love and the need to be with His creation. Just as Intel takes care of every single switch they put into the processor, so does God takes it upon Himself to note every single part of His creation given that He didn't create for nothing but for a purpose. It is this purpose, especially the purpose for our existence, that we should know!

Is life worth it if at all it has no purpose?

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by Type R

Then we have the absurd idea that a Being of ominpotent power, omniscient knowledge and eternal unquestioned existence would actually take us miserable petty human beings seriously!!! Come on, people! Do you take ants seriously? Do you take frogs seriously?

Exactly. Yaani this great infinite power that has always existed and that created the universe actually gets extremely upset when I look at a chic on a music video and say "I'd love to do her". This power will send me to burn in hell forever for that. What a petty tyrant. Do people really worship god because they love him or because they are scared sh.itless about what he will do to them if they don't bow down countless times a day and kiss his ass and remind him just how great and powerful and mighty and loving he is? No wonder Richard Dawkins, in his book "The God Delusion", says “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by atlian

exactly. Yaani this great infinite power that has always existed and that created the universe actually gets extremely upset when i look at a chic on a music video and say "i'd love to do her". This power will send me to burn in hell forever for that. What a petty tyrant. Do people really worship god because they love him or because they are scared sh.itless about what he will do to them if they don't bow down countless times a day and kiss his ass and remind him just how great and powerful and mighty and loving he is? no wonder richard dawkins, in his book "the god delusion", says “the god of the old testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

ahh,and we are supposed to take richard dawkins seriously why?his god delusion book is an embarrassment to atheists.with the worst philosophical arguments against god.its understandable coming from a biologist. His book has been debunked even by fellow atheists.i would recommend the likes of michael martin sam harris and christopher hitchens.they have better arguments against theism than dawkins.

[Ndigila2]

death. The life we now have is a temporal provision god has allowed us through in order to demonstrate his love.

just death?

hell and hades are synonyms meaning a dark place, sometimes translated grave.

there's 4 different words translated into "hell": sheol, hades, gehenna and tartarus, all with different meanings, except maybe sheol=hades.. god is love, love is not god. God is merciful, merciful is not god. God is gracious, gracious is not god. God is immortal, immortal is not god. Examples are very many.

God's existence does not depend on love. On the contrary, existence of love depends on god. Not a perfect example. But still, god killing sinners does not mean he will cease being love, not at all. On the contrary, it will demonstrate his love, mercy, and justice.


since we cannot see eye to eye on the love issue, there's no point in continuing in this discussion. We're gonna have to 'agree to disagree'

but let me ask you this, is creation's existence self-sustaining, or does it's existence depend on god?

if jesus died so that we should not die, why was he punished? salvation plan also shows how the end shall be. Those who rejected his punishment and death shall be punished and die, whereas those who accepted his punishment and death on their behalf shall live.

we should take this back to the "christians, what are we saved from?" thread. (god killing god in order to save us from the punishment of god).

it is not impossible to err from the faith.

as an individual, yes, but not as a church. (the gates of hades shall never prevail against it)

pharasees that read widely the scriptures in the synagogue also held some beliefs outside those of the very scriptures. Read jesus' constant rebuke on them. I'm not relying on jehova witnesses interpretation of the bible, but on careful and critical analysis of the same bible giving non denominational approach to it. More often than not, i tend to agree with adventist teachings.

jesus rebuked the pharisees because of their hypocrisy. Besides, the pharisees "belief outside the scriptures" didn't form the basis of the old testament. The new testament was canonized based off tradition. The new testament epistles were written to churches, not to introduce them to the faith, but to correct where they erred and praise them for following what they had already been taught (tradition).

they also rejected some scripts which would readily frontier their current teachings including but not limited to the revelation of peter and paul. Those scripts could have contradicted the teachings of the old testament law and prophets. Thank god they canonized the testament according to god's requirement but not their philosophical "truths".

it doesn't matter how you look at it, the authenticity of the new testament texts was determined by comparing the texts to what the church teaches. You can try as much as possible to remove the human element. It's not going to work.

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

I think i agree with you too Ndigila,your analogy makes sense.The doctrine of annihilation does not seem to have alot of biblical support.ALl the refrences of hell in the bible talk about eternal torment,unless we say that all these are just metaphoric.But then how do we account for Jesus's teaching of hell and heaven using the parable of the rich man and lazarus?

Pole ernest, I didn't see this.

All of Jesus' parables are of symbolic nature. There's no basis to treat this one differently.
(From the OSB)
The great gulf is not a geographical divide, but the complete separation between virtue and wickedness, a separation that cannot be overcome at death. Note that torments have not changed the rich man's heart because he still sees Lazarus as a servant existing for the sake of his own comfort.
...From this perspective, we learn that souls of the departed have awareness of and concern for the state of those still alive on earth.

[barb]

over my lunch break 2day, i had an interesting conversation with my friend abt the meaning of life, and he told me something really interesting, ati we live so that we can die, so basically the meaning of life is death, that is the grand plan.....thought i'd share.

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by barb

over my lunch break 2day, i had an interesting conversation with my friend abt the meaning of life, and he told me something really interesting, ati we live so that we can die, so basically the meaning of life is death, that is the grand plan.....thought i'd share.

If that's the case, then why do human beings attach meaning to their lives?

Why do humans attach more meaning than the basic necessities to survive?

[barb]

Originally Posted by Ndigila2

If that's the case, then why do human beings attach meaning to their lives?

Why do humans attach more meaning than the basic necessities to survive?

well Ndigila, according to him, no one wants to die, which is pretty obvious, so we try hard to fight and avoid death even though its our destiny, makes life kinda interesting.