Absurdity of Life without God - Page 7

grip_daddy · (#61 (**permalink**))

Eternal hell/fire is real and biblical. Is it a pleasant doctrine to discuss? Maybe not.

Agreed. But how long does eternal hell fire is eternal? The fire that burnt up Sodom is recorded to have been eternal, is it still burning? Wordings as translated in the bible had literal speech connotations that conveyed information as would be understand by the people, but not as would be used for scholarly articulations.

In our daily expressions, we are fond of using the terms always, and forever to denote "frequently done" or occurrences envisioned as long as prescribed conditions remain. For example, "I will be with you always", or, "my love for you will last forever", or, "I have forever eaten Ugali", or, "let me be yours forever", or "I slept forever last night". All these examples show how, in some circumstances, the word forever, or eternal, or always, can mean finite events descriptions.

Let me draw for you some biblical examples:

David as a king was to rule forever. Sodom burnt in an eternal fire. The servant of Elisha received leprosy that would be upon him forever after deceiving Elisha concerning Naaman's gifts. Those who bought houses in the book of Judges bought them for a forever possession.

The above examples simply show how forever remains true as long as the parties involved in the events still are.

Matthew 25:46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

"The ungodly shall perish". "The wicked shall be cut off". "The sinners shall be no more". "The fire shall devour them" note here, devour means to consume until nothing is left for consumption, that is, destroy eternally. "The soul that sinneth shall die". "The wages of sin is death".

Eternal punishment means a punishment that lasts forever. In other words, you are burnished or simply sentenced to death eternally. No hope of living again, no chance of the punishment being reverted, your punishment and subsequent death is until you are no more.

Jude 1:7: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Yes. They serve as an example of those who shall be burnt up in the eternal fire especially now that the fire that burnt them isn't physically eternal, but consequentialy eternal. Eternity of this fire is best understood in light of Sodom's example.

ernestombayo7 · (#62 (**permalink**))

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ndigila2

Grip, the world exists in a corrupted state. We're born with a fallen nature in a fallen world. So it isn't about God "hiding" himself. It's about the present nature of the world. Even if he keeps things the way they are now, what happens after death?

Girp, this analogy doesn't work. "God is Love" not "God feels Love" or "God shows Love." God's love is more than an emotion, it's his nature, it's a divine energy. Furthermore, creation is a manifestation of his Love, it only exists as long as God is Love.

Let's make your analogy more accurate. Let's say that your love for your girlfriend is more than an emotion. Let's say your girlfriend is kept alive by your loving energy, and let's also say that Love is part of nature.

Now, let's say something happens, and your girlfriend begins hating you. Infact she hates your guts so much that she can't stand to be in your presence, the best thing for her is be as far away from your presence as possible. But one problem is, she can't escape your presence, (remember God is omnipresent). Wherever she goes, she sees you and this literally begins to torment her (i.e. hell).

So what's the solution? The only way she can escape this torment, is for her to die. But there's only one problem, she's kept alive by your loving energy. So to kill her and relieve her of her misery, you'd have to begin hating her (note, pretending to hate won't work because it isn't just an emotion). And since Love is your nature, you'd have to somehow stop being yourself in order to accomplish this.

Grip, I'm sorry, but eternal torment is the only consistent option with Christianity.

I think i agree with you too Ndigila,your analogy makes sense.The doctrine of annihilation does not seem to have alot of biblical support.ALl the refrences of hell in the bible talk about eternal torment,unless we say that all these are just metaphoric.But then how do we account for Jesus's teaching of hell and heaven using the parable of the rich man and lazarus?

grip_daddy · (#63 (**permalink**))

Grip, the world exists in a corrupted state.

The souls that shall be tormented by God's love shall exist in a corrupted state.

We're born with a fallen nature in a fallen world.

When did my soul begin to exist? When I was born or it has always existed forever? Did it become a sinful entity at a my birth or before? If it was created at my birth, does it mean that God creates souls for every single being that was born, that is being born, that shall be born? Or, when does this corrupt state that determines our existence as corrupt humans begins?

These strongly insinuate predestination which is not a biblical truth either.

So it isn't about God "hiding" himself.

God is intentionally hiding Himself because no flesh shall see Him and live. Moses had to hide his face with a veil after being close to God for forty days. God Himself could not show him His face literally for he could have died. This hiding is totally practical, physical, and possible; now and hereafter.

It's about the present nature of the world. Even if he keeps things the way they are now, what happens after death?

By the way, what will be the need for a physical resurrection of sinners whose souls are already tormenting in hell? Or in God's presence?

Girp, this analogy doesn't work. "God is Love" not "God feels Love" or "God shows Love." God's love is more than an emotion, it's his nature, it's a divine energy.

You mean God is being controlled by some divine energy in the name of love? Something He is incapable of choosing against?

Furthermore, creation is a manifestation of his Love, it only exists as long as God is Love.

Does creation posses a begining? If yes, was God not love before manifesting that love in creation? If creation is a manifestation of love, it therefore means that creation is not the love itself, which therefore means that this love exists outside of creation. If this love is above creation, then destroying this creation or part thereof does not terminate nor negate this love.

If my love for my son is manifested in my provision for gifts every week, removal of this gift does not terminate my love for him. I can't be bound to the gift simply because I love my son, but my freewill will allow me remain a loving being despite the absence of any manifestation thereof.

Let's make your analogy more accurate. Let's say that your love for your girlfriend is more than an emotion. Let's say your girlfriend is kept alive by your loving energy, and let's also say that Love is part of nature.

I would withdraw my love to avoid tormenting her. Note, withdrawing my love does not mean that I cease being love, but for the sake of her needless endless pain, I shall surely make her stop living.

Now, let's say something happens, and your girlfriend begins hating you. Infact she hates your guts so much that she can't stand to be in your presence, the best thing for her is be as far away from your presence as possible. But one problem is, she can't escape your presence, (remember God is omnipresent). Wherever she goes, she sees you and this literally begins to torment her (i.e. hell).

God's omnipresence is as true in the after death as it is true right now. If God can make His presence not to be felt or realized by the current sinners, He can also do the same in the after life and allow the sinner to die. Actually, imagining that I might die forever and ever, just disappearing as if I never was, is a punishment to me because I won't be able to enjoy the eternal life. This punishment is equally eternal though I won't be conscious to appreciate or experience it.

[b]So what's the solution? The only way she can escape this torment, is for her to die. But there's only one problem, she's kept alive by your loving energy. [/]

"The soul that sinneth shall die." Please let the bible remain true to its words. This is the problem of lying upon traditions and borrowed mythologies. You know very well that God will withdraw His life giving breath or spirit "the spirit returns to God who gave it" Ecc 3:19-21 yet you claim that His love will bind the sinner to a forever life. No, the sinner "shalt surely die" Gen 2:17.

" So to kill her and relieve her of her misery, you'd have to begin hating her (note, pretending to hate won't work because it isn't just an emotion)"

Wow, you see how you twist things? You say that God would rather maintain you in torment forever and ever knowing perfectly well that your torment will do you no good than kill you? The bible is clear on that, He shall kill you. By the way, God too has things He hates including but not limited to divorce. Anyway, God killing the sinner is not because He hates him, but because He loves him just too much to allow him torment eternally for a temporal sin.

And since Love is your nature, you'd have to somehow stop being yourself in order to accomplish this.

Well, love does not control God, but God controls love.

Grip, I'm sorry, but eternal torment is the only consistent option with Christianity.

It is the only consistent concept of human doctrines absent in careful analysis of biblical wordings. Relying on philosophies and transmitted mythologies destroys the essence of relying upon the bible.

The idea of an immortal soul springs up from the first deception, "thou shalt not surely die, but you shall be like gods, knowing good and evil". Purgatory lies on that lie.

YB* · (#64 (**permalink**))

Quote:

Originally Posted by Type R

"God exists outside time."

But God stays the same?

However, the Bible does record incidences of seeming change of opinion by the Almighty. eg the eviction of Lucifer from heaven. This is an incident that happened in the spiritual world, and demonstrates: -

a) there is change in the spiritual world. there are events, therefore there are periods before those events, and after. If not, the eviction of Lucifer could never have "happened." Once u accept change, you accept time.

b) God learns from experience. God must have learned that this Lucifer was a "devil" and could not be allowed to continue in heaven. This learning experience implies God does change, he does go thru historical process, he evolves, new environments built on old occurrences. Unless the whole bizness is a set-up, a masquerade...a "fixed" match...

Thus we conclude that God exists within time. The only other option is to be frozen forever.

In addition, just to get a grip of the argument, we see an instance of the existence of the devil almost immediately after Adam and eve with no existence of anyone else (on earth as recorded in the bible), meaning that the issues that made Lucifer banished to hell happened before or during creation, but definitely before man - showing existence of God and his realm before creation, the fact that there are events going on before creation, means they must happen in time

This is where we are crippled when discussing time and God, the bible indicates that the spiritual world is in existence before creation and continues to be lively to date:

Evidence is seen when another verse talks of 'angels lusting for daughter of earth and coming down and mating with them, producing Giants', this would indicate that dissent or challenge to the status quo in the spiritual realm is something ongoing, and things may not be as perfect as we imagine heaven to be.

Imagine that Angels (or whatever spirits of the God realm) finding the daughters of men beautiful!!, brings also a different twist to Jesus, If spiritual beings can lust, that would mean Jesus had sexual needs or fantasies, technically in christianity thats a sin ( I digress, discussion for another thread)

grip_daddy · (#65 (**permalink**))

Quote:

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

But then how do we account for Jesus's teaching of hell and heaven using the parable of the rich man and lazarus?

Jesus was not teaching the doctrine of hell and heaven in that parable. Read the settings and prior parables to see which doctrine He was dealing upon!

If you get a Chemistry book explaining how electrons are arranged in their different orbitals, and as a simpler way to explain how this happens, the writer uses a story building and people sitting in each floor according to some laws, it would be absurd to here someone claiming that story building occupation by people follow those laws.

Anyway, how do you deal with numerous verses that show how the sinners shall surely die, or perish, or be cut off, or those verses that equate hell/hade to the grave? There is an important verse that reads, "and the lake of fire is the second death".

Ester · (#66 (**permalink**))

Quote:

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

I think i agree with you too Ndigila,your analogy makes sense.The doctrine of annihilation does not seem to have alot of biblical support.ALl the refrences of hell in the bible talk about eternal torment,unless we say that all these are just metaphoric.But then how do we account for Jesus's teaching of hell and heaven using the parable of the rich man and lazarus?

I think Grip brings up some interesting ideas. If the wicked burn in hell for the ceaseless ages of eternity then wouldn't they have eternal life? But the wicked don't get eternal life, do they?

Read Malachi 4:1-3; "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts."

If the dead burn in hell forever then they would be left with root and branch. Also, how can the righteous tread down the wicked that will be ashes if they are eternally burning forever?

Perhaps by "eternal", "everlasting" torment the bible means that the results of hell-fire are eternal, but the actual fire is not?

Type R · (#67 (**permalink**))

Then we have the absurd idea that a Being of ominpotent power, omniscient knowledge and eternal unquestioned existence would actually take us miserable petty human beings seriously!!! Come on, people! Do you take ants seriously? Do you take frogs seriously?

grip_daddy · (#68 (**permalink**))

Quote:

Perhaps by "eternal", "everlasting" torment the bible means that the results of hell-fire are eternal, but the actual fire is not?

The book of Jude that you quoted gives us the answer. We surely know that the results of Sodom fire were eternal, but the fire lasted only a few days.

Philosophy came up with the idea of a living soul because it is too painful to imagine that man can cease to exist, especially from atheistic or secular point of rationale (atheistic lifestyle is not a lifestyle that denies God's existence in words alone, but in practical terms too. Actually someone who believes in the mind that God exist, but goes ahead to live a life void of this knowledge, is equally an atheist. If you truly believed in God, you could not practice robbery as a profession or otherwise).

The whole idea of soul surviving the body, if considerations are given to the emergence of religious cults that exercise demonic powers such as occult, spiriticism, spiritualists, "magicians, astrologers, sorcerers, and the chaldeans", and all those that consult the dead on behalf of the living which God instructed against, it would be appreciated that it is Satan's employed lie to deceive humanity. Satan endeavours to divert attention from God to himself through the dead. But the dead are incapable of knowing anything though humanity has been led to believe that the dead are not surely dead, but are a having a higher life form, "knowing good and evil" and are "like gods", possessing an immortal soul. Gen 3:1-5.

See Daniel 2:3, Isaiah 8:19, and the story of Saul visiting the dead Samuel.

If the soul is alive after first death, what is the need for Jesus' to come a second time?

Ndigila2 · (#69 (**permalink**))