[ATLian]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

The question of the thread is,if God does not exist,n atheism is true,is life meaningful?
i went ahead and illustrated why its not and even morality does niot make sense if we are all going to die.pliz read the original post and see why ur post was irrelevant.

Ernest,

we are not robots who are programmed to do one thing only. We are intelligent creatures who can actually leave the tracks and explore other areas. There is absolutely nothing wrong in asking other questions related to the topic.

That said, whether it's relevant to this particular topic or not, I'd be interested in your response ama comments to what I wrote.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

and God's eternality shows what?

The word "eternal" involves a concept of time. Ama when you say that we will live in heaven eternally, what does that mean to you?

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

you wanted the bible to say"God is outside time?"

I just want some concrete evidence showing this. I've read about this before. Christians used to say that god has always existed, blah blah blah. Then some smart men started asking questions about it, and these questions put a major dent in the Christian's theory.That's when christians came up with the remix "God exists OUTSIDE time!" That makes absolutely no sense, and there is no Biblical evidence to back that statement up.

So yes, show me some legitimate BIBLICAL evidence.

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

And i thought it was simple logic.don't you think your post is really childish.pliz stick to the original post

Man, WTF is up with you and calling those you don't agree with childish??????

[barb]

Originally Posted by Ndigila2

Are you sure you'll still be around in 30 years?

yep, certain, am not ready to go for the nx 80yrs.

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by ATLian

I've heard this analogy several times. Here is where it fails.

First, a mother will have a different punishment for her son if he plays in the mud and gets dirty and if she catches him shoplifting or messing around with a girl. Lakini for god, it's the same punishment, there is no degree of sin.

Secondly, a mother won't ground her son forever ama beat him forever because of playing in the mud. With god, you're stuck in hell forever, and you will never ever get out.

Finally, a mother doesn't know what the son will do in the future, and she didn't create the situations needed for the son to do those things. If she did, then she could be held accountable. Like if a mother is a crack dealer ama she runs a brothel, then she shouldn't be surprised to one day catch the kid smoking crack or getting off with a langa. Lakini god created the scenarios we will be in, and he know already the things we will do, so he has to have a level of culpability for the sins man ends up committing.

What you're failing to see is that hell isn't punishment inflicted by God, hell is self-inflicted punishment. Nowhere in my analogy did I include the mother punishing the son (you've introduced a strawman). It's the teenage boy resenting his mother's love that is likened to hell.

Let's try a different approach: in the Bible, God's presence is usually signified by fire (The burning bush, the fire that led the israelites through the desert at night, the chariot of fire that took Elijah to heaven, John the Baptist said Jesus will baptize with fire, tongues of fire on the apostles during pentecost, etc). It's your perception of this fiery presence that determines whether you'll experience heaven or hell. The same fire that purifies gold is the same fire that burns wood.

[grip_daddy]

What will be the point of sinners burning for all eternity? As at present, God has safely hidden Himself preventing Him from afflicting pain to the sinners by His presence. Why would He change this in order to inflict torment to people who can't repent?

For a time is understandable, but forever and forever? It is better He isn't termed a loving God. Whichever way you you look at it, eternal torment does not equal love.

I love my girlfriend too much, that the best I can do is to let her go; not to inflict torment in her heart and soul always by my presence. She is always in pain whenever she sees me, and because I love her and would prefer that she is happy, joyful, and in peace, I would rather stay away from her.

If God is love, then He always feel pain when beholding a suffering individual. He always longs to help them, to take away their pain and sadness. God always feel compassion for the helpless with a deep desire that they may know Him. Actually, God "so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever shall believe in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life".

Stating that those who shall refuse to believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life in torment is entirely unbiblical.

Ndigila, not only will eternal pain show how cruel and blood thirsty God is, but also bind Him in equal pain forever and ever because He shall always feel the pain of the tormenting sinners; unless He is not a loving compassionate Being.

[Ester]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

For a time is understandable, but forever and forever? It is better He isn't termed a loving God. Whichever way you you look at it, eternal torment does not equal love.

Eternal hell/fire is real and biblical. Is it a pleasant doctrine to discuss? Maybe not.

Matthew 25:46: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Jude 1:7: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

As at present, God has safely hidden Himself preventing Him from afflicting pain to the sinners by His presence. Why would He change this in order to inflict torment to people who can't repent?

Grip, the world exists in a corrupted state. We're born with a fallen nature in a fallen world. So it isn't about God "hiding" himself. It's about the present nature of the world. Even if he keeps things the way they are now, what happens after death?

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

I love my girlfriend too much, that the best I can do is to let her go; not to inflict torment in her heart and soul always by my presence. She is always in pain whenever she sees me, and because I love her and would prefer that she is happy, joyful, and in peace, I would rather stay away from her.

Girp, this analogy doesn't work. "God is Love" not "God feels Love" or "God shows Love." God's love is more than an emotion, it's his nature, it's a divine energy. Furthermore, creation is a manifestation of his Love, it only exists as long as God is Love.

Let's make your analogy more accurate. Let's say that your love for your girlfriend is more than an emotion. Let's say your girlfriend is kept alive by your loving energy, and let's also say that Love is part of nature.

Now, let's say something happens, and your girlfriend begins hating you. Infact she hates your guts so much that she can't stand to be in your presence, the best thing for her is be as far away from your presence as possible. But one problem is, she can't escape your presence, (remember God is omnipresent). Wherever she goes, she sees you and this literally begins to torment her (i.e. hell).

So what's the solution? The only way she can escape this torment, is for her to die. But there's only one problem, she's kept alive by your loving energy. So to kill her and relieve her of her misery, you'd have to begin hating her (note, pretending to hate won't work because it isn't just an emotion). And since Love is your nature, you'd have to somehow stop being yourself in order to accomplish this.

Grip, I'm sorry, but eternal torment is the only consistent option with Christianity.

[jasakwa]

First, a mother will have a different punishment for her son if he plays in the mud and gets dirty and if she catches him shoplifting or messing around with a girl. Lakini for god, it's the same punishment, there is no degree of sin.

God doesn't operate that way.He does not always punish all sins by sending someone to hell.He offered repentance for the purpose of forgiveness.

Secondly, a mother won't ground her son forever ama beat him forever because of playing in the mud. With god, you're stuck in hell forever, and you will never ever get out.

I have seen a mother cursing a son for disobeying her.Infact most tribes had a provision of this in their culture.Punishment is for disobedience and that is even why criminals get jailed.Why do you blame God for sending a sinful,rebellious indivual to hell?Are you championing for a lawless society?

Lakini god created the scenarios we will be in, and he know already the things we will do, so he has to have a level of culpability for the sins man ends up committing.

He did not,the troubles bedeviling creation are as a result of rebellion caused by Satan.

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by ATLian

Ernest,

we are not robots who are programmed to do one thing only. We are intelligent creatures who can actually leave the tracks and explore other areas. There is absolutely nothing wrong in asking other questions related to the topic.

That said, whether it's relevant to this particular topic or not, I'd be interested in your response ama comments to what I wrote.

move the post to the Problem of evil thread and we can discuss it there.

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by ATLian

The word "eternal" involves a concept of time. Ama when you say that we will live in heaven eternally, what does that mean to you?





I just want some concrete evidence showing this. I've read about this before. Christians used to say that god has always existed, blah blah blah. Then some smart men started asking questions about it, and these questions put a major dent in the Christian's theory.That's when christians came up with the remix "God exists OUTSIDE time!" That makes absolutely no sense, and there is no Biblical evidence to back that statement up.

So yes, show me some legitimate BIBLICAL evidence.





Man, WTF is up with you and calling those you don't agree with childish??????

The bible says God is eternal.He always existed.
If God is eternal,uncreated,and time itself was created in the big bang,doesn't it follow that God existed before time?