[ATLian]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

God exists outside time.

Do you have any Biblical evidence to back this up?

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by Type R

"God exists outside time."

What does that mean? Does it mean: God is frozen, external to change. "...the same, yesterday, today, tomorrow..." Does that imply no change to God's opinions, experience, growth? Consider humans: our growth minimizes in our teens, but our emotional and mental growth keeps growing. So we are not exact the same as yesterday. Someone arrogant may become humble, someone humble may become cocky, someone impulsive may become disciplined ... due to personal experiences, etc.

We can't say God is frozen,since it implies he's physical.i.e he ahs parts or a body that can freeze or unfreeze in time.Existence outside of time is not equal to time freezing.It means the concept of time si absolutely non-existant

the phrase "...the same, yesterday, today, tomorrow..." means God's characteristics.He's forever loving,he's forever good.i don't see why it would mean he can't have emotions.

To grasp an idea of what outside of time means think of a a movie,when watching the movie,you have to go frame by frame.But a director can simply lay out the film strip and look at all the frames at ago.

Humans have to go frame by frame in this movie called Life.but for od,he has the film strip with all the frames infront of him.

This is different from pausing the movie,it means nothing happens.the scenes are frozen.this is what ur equaling to "outside of time".but its not the case.

But God stays the same?

However, the Bible does record incidences of seeming change of opinion by the Almighty. eg the eviction of Lucifer from heaven. This is an incident that happened in the spiritual world, and demonstrates: -

a) there is change in the spiritual world. there are events, therefore there are periods before those events, and after. If not, the eviction of Lucifer could never have "happened." Once u accept change, you accept time.

The eviction of Lucifer is believed to have happened right after creation.

b) God learns from experience. God must have learned that this Lucifer was a "devil" and could not be allowed to continue in heaven. This learning experience implies God does change, he does go thru historical process, he evolves, new environments built on old occurrences. Unless the whole bizness is a set-up, a masquerade...a "fixed" match...

no God is omniscience.he knew satan would rebel and he knew he would expell him from heaven.

Thus we conclude that God exists within time. The only other option is to be frozen forever.

compare my film strip example.

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by Type R

It is not so much the decision to own a pet that is ridiculous but the idea of a being hanging around eternity all alone (that must be miserable!).

An owner/pet relationship is a poor analogy in that it fails to capture the utter loneliness and eternal solitude of a being just hanging around forever and ever and ever in meaningless empty space, on and on and on... I am not saying it is impossible, but "absurd."

A better example would be the last old person left in a nursing home, passing the age of 100, then 110, 120, 130, 140, just sitting on a rocking chair, just whiling the years away, nothing to do, on and on and on, 190 ... 200 ... 5000 ... 10,000 yrs old... I mean, come on!

NB: The implication that we are God's pets is very profound!

I gave you this analoogy because you had said that without life God's existence is absurd.implying that God needs life to make his existence worthwile.So i gave the pet example to show that there is a difference between "need" and "want".

I am perfectly okay,if i never ever own a talking parrot.but i might just decide to get one if i see one being sold next to my house.

God does not need human existence.he would have been perfectly okay if he never created,but He saw it good to create humans.

NB: God's existence was not a "long long long time".we cannot use time to discuss events before time.we simply have no idea how existence outside of time is.

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by Type R

Believers are stuck: either: -

....God pre-knows everything, which makes him a worse-than-sadist evil monster. ie. he knows that I will walk into a burning house tomorrow and die the ugliest death yet he does nothing about it.

- or -

...God doesn't pre-know. Then He ain't God, because he ain't omniscient.

Can't win, can they?

I will open a free will and omniscience thread.because i think you guys have hijacked this thread and diverted from the topic at hand

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by ATLian

Because good and bad doesn't exist because of god. I'll assume that according to you, all morality comes from the christian god. I'll also assume (from your name) that you're Kisii. Since Kisii's first got to hear of god in the last century, do you think that they were an immoral tribe for all the centuries they had existed prior to knowing the Christian god? Do you think that Kisii's didn't know that rape, robbery and murder were bad, and they only realized this when some mzungu told them about Jesus Christ?

Also, like I've said previously, god is a terrible source for morality. God is the one who has asked his people to enslave others, capture virgin brides and keep them for sex slaves and had his men kill little boys and old people during wars. God tells you to kill anyone caught working on a Sunday. God accepts human sacrifices! etc etc etc. There is no way, using the Bible as evidence, that you can say god is a moral god. For him, morality doesn't exist since everything he does, good or bad, will always be judged by his followers to be moral!

don't mean to be rude but how is this relevant to the thread?

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by ATLian

Do you have any Biblical evidence to back this up?

< John 1:1 >>In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)
God is the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity (Isaiah 57:15).

Isn't it obvious an uncreated God is outside of time?if time came into existence with creation of the universe.You do know that time cannot be independent of space?its called space-time.Einsteins theory of relativity.

now back to the relevant topic at hand.

[grip_daddy]

Time as a duration did not begin. Only time in relation to matter began.

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by ATLian

To answer the question - But if God does not exist then why do humans live life as if it matters? - For me, it's because I believe that all I have is this life on earth. So I try live it to the fullest. If I was a Christian, who believes that I have a better life waiting for me after I die, then I might be less motivated to live this life to the fullest.

But this also leads to some questions. If all the universe could give other animals and us the necessary physiologies and skills to survive, where does the motivation to "live life to the fullest" come from?

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by ATLian

Grip,

I see that you're beginning to see the light. Welcome to my side of the fence! Yes, how can a god with infinite love torture human beings infinitely for a finite sin, even if some of the sins are ridiculous (like eating pork or lobster)? If we mere mortals can see that different crimes deserve different punishments, why can't an infinitely wise god see that? If god does hate sin that much, yet he always knew that Lucifer would rebel against him, and that man would sin, why did he bother to make man and Lucifer? Why why why?

ATLian, the people in hell are tormented by God's Love. We should forward the discussion of hell to another thread to prevent any more derailing.

[grip_daddy]

ATLian

For a truth I can't worship a God who torments people forever yet He can get rid of them (there's nothing impossible with God). Ah no no, I'm not joining your side given that I have attended church services twice of late. The experiential joy I witnessed is well above rationalization. It's better worded as a "joy outside of this world".

Did I say that I'm back to church? Yes, I'm back to where the true meaning of life can be found. I'm back to fully believing that my God does not torment people for all eternity. My belief is that God punishes sinners according to His justice and love, and He rewards the righteous "according to how their works shall be".

The philosophy of God tormenting sinners is from Babylonian mythology borrowed by the Greeks and by the early church. Nothing biblical.

Life without God, in summary, can't have a rational explanation. Life with a God whose love tortures you for all eternity, even though He could terminate you for all of that eternity, is purely a negative idea; loathsome and cruel that is, full of hatred and love for pain and suffering.