[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by Borse

Get someone who is enlightened and he will let u know the real meaning of life and why you exist now. Do you know you have existed before but you can't remember because you have this illusion of separation of body and spirit so your experiences right now can hadly allow you to remember why you are here and where you are from but one day you will find out the truth?

What is the reason for this illusion?

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by Type R

After hanging around in the void of eternity for - what? - a buzillion quintillion millenia, an idea just hits Him: "Hey, let's create people!"

presupposes time existed.God exists outside time.

Now, this needs further investigation. What was God's motive in creating lesser fallible error-prone mortal beings?

Creation is a good thing.about "error prone mortals",its an option to create Robots who will follow his every command.or People who will freely choose to worship him or not.

And why at this point? Why hadn't he done it before

again presupposess there was a "before".time.there was no before.you can say he was always thinking of creating.its pointless asking "why at this point" if we can't place the "point" in a time scale.

such that all history would have happened by now and, instead of being in Mashada, we'd be in heaven or hell? What was the prompt?

read above.

Does "before" exist in eternity, or is it just a perspective derived from mortality?

going by the big bang model,no universe no space-time.so its pointless to say "before" in a situation where there is not time.

The problem with this whole thread is that it is using mortality as a point of view from which to observe immortality, thereby attempting to provide a rationale for mortality. Since immortality presumably precedes mortality, then it should be incumbent upon immortality to furnish us with a good argument for immortality and mortality.

i don't think so,the thread asks simply,if there is no higher purpose or after-life,then do you agree that human life,morality and the universe are just a temporal meangless chance occurence?

As I said, God without Life is the extremity of absurdity!!! Everybody has run away from this!!!

i also disagree.an analogy,I don't need a pet,but i wouldn't mind having a pet.

[Type R]

"God exists outside time."

What does that mean? Does it mean: God is frozen, external to change. "...the same, yesterday, today, tomorrow..." Does that imply no change to God's opinions, experience, growth? Consider humans: our growth minimizes in our teens, but our emotional and mental growth keeps growing. So we are not exact the same as yesterday. Someone arrogant may become humble, someone humble may become cocky, someone impulsive may become disciplined ... due to personal experiences, etc.

But God stays the same?

However, the Bible does record incidences of seeming change of opinion by the Almighty. eg the eviction of Lucifer from heaven. This is an incident that happened in the spiritual world, and demonstrates: -

a) there is change in the spiritual world. there are events, therefore there are periods before those events, and after. If not, the eviction of Lucifer could never have "happened." Once u accept change, you accept time.

b) God learns from experience. God must have learned that this Lucifer was a "devil" and could not be allowed to continue in heaven. This learning experience implies God does change, he does go thru historical process, he evolves, new environments built on old occurrences. Unless the whole bizness is a set-up, a masquerade...a "fixed" match...

Thus we conclude that God exists within time. The only other option is to be frozen forever.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Of recent, I have been thinking that God is one cruel being who does not deserve any mention. How dare does He torture people infinitely for finite sins?

What then is the point to claim that He is love? Atheists, most of them, hate God because of this attribute, and they are right.

Life without God (doing temporal earthly good like humanitarian aid agencies) is far much better than endless torture in the presence of God or in some physical hell for some poor widow whose sin was a failure to repent seconds before her death!

Even if I make it to heaven, I wouldn't love a God whose joy is tormenting sinners forever and ever in eternal flames. Such a being, even on this earth, does not deserve glorification and respect.

Grip,

I see that you're beginning to see the light. Welcome to my side of the fence! Yes, how can a god with infinite love torture human beings infinitely for a finite sin, even if some of the sins are ridiculous (like eating pork or lobster)? If we mere mortals can see that different crimes deserve different punishments, why can't an infinitely wise god see that? If god does hate sin that much, yet he always knew that Lucifer would rebel against him, and that man would sin, why did he bother to make man and Lucifer? Why why why?

[Type R]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

i also disagree.an analogy,I don't need a pet,but i wouldn't mind having a pet.

It is not so much the decision to own a pet that is ridiculous but the idea of a being hanging around eternity all alone (that must be miserable!).

An owner/pet relationship is a poor analogy in that it fails to capture the utter loneliness and eternal solitude of a being just hanging around forever and ever and ever in meaningless empty space, on and on and on... I am not saying it is impossible, but "absurd."

A better example would be the last old person left in a nursing home, passing the age of 100, then 110, 120, 130, 140, just sitting on a rocking chair, just whiling the years away, nothing to do, on and on and on, 190 ... 200 ... 5000 ... 10,000 yrs old... I mean, come on!

NB: The implication that we are God's pets is very profound!

[Type R]

Originally Posted by ATLian

If god does hate sin that much, yet he always knew that Lucifer would rebel against him, and that man would sin, why did he bother to make man and Lucifer? Why why why?

Believers are stuck: either: -

....God pre-knows everything, which makes him a worse-than-sadist evil monster. ie. he knows that I will walk into a burning house tomorrow and die the ugliest death yet he does nothing about it.

- or -

...God doesn't pre-know. Then He ain't God, because he ain't omniscient.

Can't win, can they?

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

But,the point is,if God doesn't exist,whats the point of discussing whats good or bad?it really doesn't matter if we have "temporal earthly good like humanitarian aid agencies".if we have them or not is ultimately meaningless.

Because good and bad doesn't exist because of god. I'll assume that according to you, all morality comes from the christian god. I'll also assume (from your name) that you're Kisii. Since Kisii's first got to hear of god in the last century, do you think that they were an immoral tribe for all the centuries they had existed prior to knowing the Christian god? Do you think that Kisii's didn't know that rape, robbery and murder were bad, and they only realized this when some mzungu told them about Jesus Christ?

Also, like I've said previously, god is a terrible source for morality. God is the one who has asked his people to enslave others, capture virgin brides and keep them for sex slaves and had his men kill little boys and old people during wars. God tells you to kill anyone caught working on a Sunday. God accepts human sacrifices! etc etc etc. There is no way, using the Bible as evidence, that you can say god is a moral god. For him, morality doesn't exist since everything he does, good or bad, will always be judged by his followers to be moral!

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by Type R

An even greater absurdity: God without Life!!!!

....Just hanging around in empty space for all eternity................ so bored, he had to make a movie: "Life."

So true. I always ask my christian pals why god made man. If god was indeed perfect, then that means that he existed in a perfect state of existence. He didn't need anything else coz that state was already perfect. Plus he had existed like that forever and ever. So why make man? The fact that he had the need or urge to make man just means that his previous state of existence wasn't perfect, which by extension means that god wasn't perfect!

Was it, like you mention, out of sheer boredom? Something like,"let's make man, throw in a few man eaters, some deadly viruses, man in different colors, different religions, different economic statuses, then we seat and enjoy the show as they screw each other up."

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by Ndigila2

Before this thread gets derailed even further, I suggest starting a different thread that deals with Hell and whether it's just or not. I'd really like to hear responses to the questions raised in the original post. Especially this one.

To answer the question - But if God does not exist then why do humans live life as if it matters? - For me, it's because I believe that all I have is this life on earth. So I try live it to the fullest. If I was a Christian, who believes that I have a better life waiting for me after I die, then I might be less motivated to live this life to the fullest.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

In atheism there is no possibilty of a God existing.

Oh yes there is. If you showed me irrefutable evidence of his existence, I'd say yes, I now believe that god exists!