Before this thread gets derailed even further, I suggest starting a different thread that deals with Hell and whether it's just or not. I'd really like to hear responses to the questions raised in the original post. Especially this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ernestombayo7
But if God does not exist then why do humans live life as if it matters?
The only "social responsibility" of a Christian is to live, wherever and with whomever he may be, the life of faith, for his own salvation and as an example to others.
Suffice it to say, most people who have "problem" with God because of the pending hell for the wicked, are themselves not the standard measure and custodians of justice and fairplay.
I also doubt whether the God loving lot are a good standard for justice and perfect love. I mean, a God loving parent should actually meet mistakes with just punishments for the kid. This just punishment should be godly, which therefore means, should be until either the parent or the kid is no more since a loving God will punish as long as He and the tormented sinner do exist rather than according to the magnitude of the sins committed.
The difference between a fool and a wise man is that a wise man is both but a fool is just a fool
I also doubt whether the God loving lot are a good standard for justice and perfect love. I mean, a God loving parent should actually meet mistakes with just punishments for the kid.
The God-loving parent accepts that he is not perfect and even as he punishes, he can't give an ultimate punishment because he might be punishing for a lot less than what he himself in one way or the other, is guilty of. God is perfect, and he is justified to give an ultimate punishment.
If God can be slanted in justice, then the word wouldn't exist, it would be futile talking about justice in any manner for any reason.
All said, I think it would be a terrible miscaculation to deny God or His justice because the sound of hell is so offensive. If we put our cases right with God, we should not even get worried about hell.
This is about God's non-existence and its relationship to the significance of life. Why would I do any good or encourage any human to do good if God doesn't exist? The good that I may do in such a case, translates to nothing.
What of doing good in the existence of a loving caring God? Sounds better.
What if the existing God is cruel and full of vengeance? That for one second sin He is hell bent to torment me eternally? What then is the importance or significance of this life?
I think atheists find it better to do good in absence of a cruel God, than to do the same good in His presence (existence).
The difference between a fool and a wise man is that a wise man is both but a fool is just a fool
This is about God's non-existence and its relationship to the significance of life. Why would I do any good or encourage any human to do good if God doesn't exist? The good that I may do in such a case, translates to nothing.
What of doing good in the existence of a loving caring God? Sounds better.
What if the existing God is cruel and full of vengeance? That for one second sin He is hell bent to torment me eternally? What then is the importance or significance of this life?
I think atheists find it better to do good in absence of a cruel God, than to do the same good in His presence (existence).
The point is this,we the original post is working on the assumption of "If God does not exist" is life worth meaningful.
So saying,"God is bad,god is cruel,......" is appealing to god's existence.Which is not sticking to the original question.
Quote:
I think atheists find it better to do good in absence of a cruel God, than to do the same good in His presence (existence).
This statement is itself contradictory.as an atheist,God's morals should not bother him/her.because he does not exist!
The reason why people become atheist is not because God is bad,its because of lack of evidence of God.Otherwise denying God's existence on the grounds of his morals is self deluding.
Its like saying i don't believe hitler existed because he was a bad person.The only grounds i should have for not believing in hitlers existence is,lack of evidence. or a positive proof of absence of evidence.
So saying,"I am an atheist because God sends people to hell,tortures them forever" is contradicting one's own world view.Atheist don't believe in hell,do't belive in a God.let alone a God who sends people to hell.
The original post could be rephrased as:-
"In an atheistic world view,is life meaningful,is there any point of morality?"
The thing is, doing good (valueing owns life and the life of others) is a good idea for an atheist even if that good has no reward hereafter, than for doing good in existence of some cruel God.
Life, therefore, is not absurd whatsoever even if it can be shown that God doesn't exist! At least the absurdity can be measured at a zero magnitude which is better than the negative magnitude I am trying to compare it with.
The difference between a fool and a wise man is that a wise man is both but a fool is just a fool
The thing is, doing good (valueing owns life and the life of others) is a good idea for an atheist even if that good has no reward hereafter, than for doing good in existence of some cruel God.
You see that is taking an agnostics position.In atheism there is no possibilty of a God existing.compare with this,"i rather not believe that Hitler existed because he was cruel."
As in,isn't belief in God based on evidence or lack thereof?so where do questions of God's morals come in?If an atheist is sure God does not exist,then why should he/she be worried whether he's cruel or not.
Quote:
Life, therefore, is not absurd whatsoever even if it can be shown that God doesn't exist! At least the absurdity can be measured at a zero magnitude which is better than the negative magnitude I am trying to compare it with.
no.there is no comparison!we are assuming that God does not exist,has never existed and will never exist.So why would you grant the possibilty of God "who is cruel" existing.there is no negative magnitude,unless you grant that God exists,or can exist.which questions an atheist worldview.
let me try with an another analogy,
Question: imagine earth never existed,we were born on mars,how would life be? answer: Life would be much better than earth because earthly existence has its earthquakes and freak weather storms.
- the answer tells us nothing about mars.
- the answer already presupposes that earth exists.and even goes further and gives earth's attributes and characteristics.
Without comparison, the significance of this life has been grounded to zero. So whatever an atheist does, it is as good as far as quality of this life demands and nothing further. That's a good reason to value life with or without God. It so happens that he has to live and be happy as he does so.
The difference between a fool and a wise man is that a wise man is both but a fool is just a fool
After hanging around in the void of eternity for - what? - a buzillion quintillion millenia, an idea just hits Him: "Hey, let's create people!"
Now, this needs further investigation. What was God's motive in creating lesser fallible error-prone mortal beings? And why at this point? Why hadn't he done it before, such that all history would have happened by now and, instead of being in Mashada, we'd be in heaven or hell? What was the prompt?
Does "before" exist in eternity, or is it just a perspective derived from mortality?
The problem with this whole thread is that it is using mortality as a point of view from which to observe immortality, thereby attempting to provide a rationale for mortality. Since immortality presumably precedes mortality, then it should be incumbent upon immortality to furnish us with a good argument for immortality and mortality.
As I said, God without Life is the extremity of absurdity!!! Everybody has run away from this!!!
Okay!
So you're Type R? THAT DON'T IMPRESS ME MUCH!!!
Having finished listening to william Lanes Craig lecture on absurdity of Life without God,it made me see life and existence in a totally new light.
For a moment what is the purpose of existence if there is no God?
If there is a God,then there is continuity of life through eternal existence with God at the end of this mortal existence.
But if God does not exist then why do humans live life as if it matters?
The earth's resources are diminishing,and environmental degradtion is killing our planet.
The sun is dying,in 3-5 billion years from now it will obliterate the earth and most if not all of the inner planets.Life will cease to exist on earth.
The universe itself as we know it is finite,a time will reach when the universe will be empty space.All stars having died and matter reduced to small quakes.
Morality
Whats the point of people being good or bad?if ultimately everyone will die and there will be no human race?
There is no ultimate difference between hitler and mother teresa.At one point in the future,no one will be there to account for their deeds.They were simply two organisms which acted differently and ceased to exist.
All the charity organizations,food programmes,hunger walks, and special programmes to help the needy and suffering in society are pointless in the long run.Everyone will die.
Our justice system is if no use,since the murderers,robbers and the good people all have the same fate.
Meaning of Life
Another question we can ask is,what is the ultimate significance of a persons life?If a person lives and ceases to exist,then that persons existence has no ultimate meaning.Ultimately,it would have made no difference if he lived or not.
But you might say,"he's or her life changed peoples lives,made a contribution while he was alive."
But thats only a relative significance.He's life was only meaningful for a certain period,and besides since everything that he ever influenced will also cease to exist,then this significance is still meaningless.Its like a death row convict advising a fellow death row convict not to commit suicide on the eve his execution.
The human race is really not special after all.Mosquitos and flies and roaches all have the same fate.Human beings do not ultimately have any special existence compared to bacteria or worms.all our fates are the same.
All our efforts of science,knowledge,medicine and technological advancements are all in vain.We build cities,towns,better drainage,try to create efficient systems,end poverty, but all this is of no use if they will all cease to exist.
PS: An astronaut on a failed mission to a planet 100 light years away finds himslef in a dilemma.The only survivor in a spaceship wrecked and unable to fly.He sees two capsules next to him,one for immortality and another laced with cyanide for suicide.The astronaut quickly puts water in a glass and in the commotion mixes the two tablets together.he picks one at random and waits for his fate.......
To his horror 5 minutes later he finds out he has taken the pill for immortality.
PSS: Its self defeating to agree that life is objectively meaningless but we should create our own meaning.EG saying,"yes i agree that without God there is no ultimate meaning in life,but we should at least try make our own life worth living."
Ultimately it will not matter whether you made your life worth living or not.you will still cease to exist.and everything that you influenced too.
Get someone who is enlightened and he will let u know the real meaning of life and why you exist now. Do you know you have existed before but you can't remember because you have this illusion of separation of body and spirit so your experiences right now can hadly allow you to remember why you are here and where you are from but one day you will find out the truth?
Do you know you are under control by your current existence because we are living in the dark age so ego, fear, etc are the order of the day? This is being enforced in your life through mind control, religious systems, political systems, educational systems that dont teach you what you need to know as a human being, monetary systems that create the feeling of inequality in all humanity and so on...Only a very few people know the real meaning of life and its not being born going to school, getting a job saving for retirement and dying. You have not accomplished anything you really came to accomplish in this life.
God exists and is in form of energy.
You are not the only species of humans and other forms that God made because there exists other people in spititual and physical form out there but you will never be taught this in church, school etc..
There is a big fight between good and evil that you wont see or hear but trust me there is.
Prayer is called talking to God but how do you listen to God? Through meditation and quieting your mind are you able to receive cosmic messages in form of heat, light, feelings, touch etc and other senses.
Dont let anyone tell you there is no God because first of all when most people think about God they have a picture of a white man with a long beard seated on a big chair watching every move you do and he wants money in church and will crush you if you dont obey him...but he still loves you.
Only through meditation will you find inner peace because when you meditate you lower your brain frequency and you as a whole spiritual being will gradually receive cosmic energy from God and you will balance your chakras and have access to your spiritual life.
If only we were taught this things in school life on earth would be LIFE
07-05-2008, 04:27 PM
Linear Mode
