[ATLian]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

So any explanations of the universe that appeal to an infinite are wrong.eg Multi verse theory,an infinite universe etc.

I concur.

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

It therefore means that the universe had a finite beginninig which follows that it had a first cause.an immaterial,non-physical,non-temperal powerful and personal first cause.i.e God..

I agree with the first part, I disagree with the part in blue. We have already gone through the reasons why I disagree, no point in rehashing them again.

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

So atlian,you see the implications are that if actual infinites cannot exist,then you have to throw out all scientific theories which support infinites.And thus the Comological argument is the only one that makes sense.

Again, I concur with everything you say apart from the text in blue.

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by flexxxx

I honestly think it was. Before when we were hunters, no one cared about where we came from. all we wanted to do was survive. Once we settled down, we had more time on our hands to actually contemplate our own existence ( considered by most as a natural mistake ).

Now by nature, Humans are inquisitive, just like the poster wants to comprehend the meaning of infinity and its implications. think about solitary confinement, why is it such a troubling experiece? because the human brain always wants to be aware of what is going on. the fact that things happen around you all the time,will want you to have an explanation for them. We all had some sort of religions. people went to great lengths to try and understand nature in relation to them. ( EG Mayans with the Golden Mean or Fibbionachi ), the whole basis of any form of religion was to put a rest on this assult on the brain by the lack of knowledge. It provided some sort of solace for one's ignorance and meant you dont have to be troubled. just "Hand your troubles to god".

It isn't that simple, if Religion was as a result of contemplation, we should at least be able to see evidence of this contemplation as in we should be able to see the evolution of worship rituals, sacrifices, commandments to obey, and the concept of the afterlife. So at least there should have been an 'atheistic' (for lack of a better term) ancient society. But these are evident even in the earliest settled civilization discovered, it was a sort of 'first instinct' reaction.

A simpler response would have been for ancient man to declare his ignorance and concentrate on his survival just like his hunter-gatherer predecessors.

Originally Posted by flexxxx

remove god from the equation and tell me what todays date is (not 2008 AD), remove christ and give me a day when we would have started to count the centuries from hence meanign today is such and such a date.

It is the 27th day of the 6th month of the 6th year in the reign of H.E. President Emilio Mwai Kibaki.

Originally Posted by flexxxx

Religion formed a base for sanity and the fact that it provides so many people with a finite begining and a finite end makes it a very attractive option for anyone with a troubled comprehension of their surroundings.

I still think you need to prove that they were trying to explain their natural surroundings. Cause right now it's like saying Yoga and Meditation we're also as a result of inability to explain natural surroundings.

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by Nxele

@ernestombayo7

Infinity actually exists .

FYI there can be no hotel with an infinite number of rooms with an infinite number of people . Simply check this : the worlds population is 5.2 billion can u fit the whole world's population in ur hotel with 'inifnite number of rooms' ?

Even if there was a hotel with an infinite number of rooms , with an occupancy of inifinte number of people then one of the guests leave , then the number of people remainning will be a greater number tending towards infinity but not infinity .

FYI there is no : infinity + 1 , but there is a greater number tending towards infinity . Did u ever get a chance to define '0' (zero) and the number 'r' in class ?

The whole point of the hotel is to show that such a hotel is impossible.and so actual infinites cannot be possible.

The problem with subtracting from or adding unto an infinity,is you need to actually count upto infinity for you to add.(if that makes sense).Which is impossible.

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by ATLian

I





I agree with the first part, I disagree with the part in blue. We have already gone through the reasons why I disagree, no point in rehashing them again.

Let me get this clear

1.We have established that actual infinites don't exist.and you agreed.(plus virtually the whole science community)
2.Which implies that the universe cannot be infinite.It had a beginning.
3.Which means that all scientific theories which entail actual infinites aree wrong.so multi verse theory and oscillating universe theories are dead wrong.which you agreed.


now if the universe had a beginning.
then it had a cause for its beginning.

thats what the cosmological argument says.what dont you agree with in those two lines above?

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by Type R

Addition and subtraction are operations that are performed on singletons of a set, and not upon sets themselves.

Even finite sets are not subject to addition. Can one perform a function like, "all even numbers between 1 and 10 inclusive + 1 = all even numbers between 1 and 10 inclusive?" Wouldn't the "1" in this circumstance require further qualification? "1" is discrete, while "all even numbers between 1 and 10 inclusive" is a set.

What does "+ 1" mean in a circumstance like this? How does it differ from "1 + 1", if at all?

The normal "1" is universal, and can apply to any type of members - goat, hen, another number.

Let us enumerate "all even numbers between 1 and 10 inclusive": {2, 4, 6, 8, 10}.

Can we perform {2, 4, 6, 8, 10} + 1?

What exactly would that mean? What does the "1" mean?? Is it the same as {2, 4, 6, 8, 10} + {1}??

Would the result be {2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 1}??

Does the "1" mean "any admissible member" eg 2, 4 or 6 (even nos between 1 - 10 incl)?

I am defeated by this attempted operation between a singleton and a set.

In common life terms, "family + 1 newborn kid = family". "family - 1 family member who dies = family". But you see I am qualifying the "1" ie "newborn kid. But can I say "family + 1" ?? 1 what? 1 family? 1 kid? 1 dog? In mathematical terms, does the "1" already belong to the abstract set defined as "family"?

The nature of the operation "+" needs to be clarified in the original sample (infinity + 1 = infinity).

For example: You could narrow down "infinity" into "an infinitely large number" -- that would clear the confusion.

Actually a better analogy of the hotel paradox is the famous hilberta's hotel paradox.where an infinite number of rooms has an infinite number of guests.we add new guests by pushing the first guest from room number one to room number two,then guest 2 to room number three and so on an so on.until we have created an empty room at the beginning.i.e room 1.

We can do this continuously hence,the paradox of whether the hotel is full or not.

[Nxele]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

The whole point of the hotel is to show that such a hotel is impossible.and so actual infinites cannot be possible.

The problem with subtracting from or adding unto an infinity,is you need to actually count upto infinity for you to add.(if that makes sense).Which is impossible.

@ernestombayo7

Hope you realize that whatever number you can pull up will only tend towards infinity but will never ever equal infinity .

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by Nxele

@ernestombayo7

Hope you realize that whatever number you can pull up will only tend towards infinity but will never ever equal infinity .

which is my point!

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

now if the universe had a beginning.
then it had a cause for its beginning.

thats what the cosmological argument says.what dont you agree with in those two lines above?

I agree that the universe had a beginning. I just don't agree with the cosmological argument that the cause of that beginning was a supreme being.

[KrOoK3D L3Tt3rZ]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

What comes to mind when you think of the word infinity?It means having no limits or boundaries in time and space or in magnitude.

But can an actual infinity exist?Infinites in theory do exist,potential and conceptual infinites.

But think of a hotel with an infinite number of rooms with infinite number of guests.The hotel is full.Since every room is occupied.

But what happens when one guest leaves?The hotel now should not be full.it should have one room free.right? wrong!

infinity - 1 = infinity.

infinity + 1 = infinity.
So adding or subtracting from an infinite is pointless.it will still remain infinite.

So back to our hotel,it seems that our hotel will still be full even if 100 guests leave.How can that be and we can clearly see empty rooms?so is the hotel full or not?

Another simpler example is,if an actual infinite past exists,then how long would it take to traverse that past?an infinite amount of time.Meaning that that past cannot be traversed.

If for example our universe always existed,,had an infinite past,then how long would it have taken the universe to reach the present time?an infinite amount of time.Meaning it would have never reached the present time.It would have forever existed in the past.

I think Actual infinites are impossible.They lead to paradoxes.And this is significant because it possess a problem to an Atheistic world view.

It means that our universe had a beginning.Our universe is not infinite.it could not have existed forever.

If matter came into existence with the "creation" of the universe.Then what created the universe?it can't be something physical,since everything i.e physical came into existence with the universe.

A few Atheists are aware of the problem of accepting the conclusion that actual infinites do not exist,bcoz it compromises their world view.it becomes increasingly impossible to account for the universe.

So whats your take?

Thanks for this post, so far this is the most interesting post i have come across. Kept my mind jogging and a wide grin on my face. Its an eye opener since i used to hate math and related subjects in high school (but started appreciating it in my second yr in college) Keep em coming Ernest

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by ATLian

I agree that the universe had a beginning. I just don't agree with the cosmological argument that the cause of that beginning was a supreme being.

but the cosmological argument says

Everything that has a beginning has a cause for its existence
the universe had a beginning
the universe had a cause for its existence.

thats it.
which part don't you agree with?