[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

If infinity does not exist, and God is said to be infinite, then God does not exist.

Actua;lly God is not infinite,he's eternal.Infinites cannot exist timelessly.No time no infinites.This is because infinites imply change.addition or subtraction.
i.e 1+1+1+1+1+1+!............... or -1,-2,-3,-4,-5.....

So Christians use of infinite to describe God is wrong.Eternal,timeless and infinite are not the same thing.

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by ATLian

What exactly do you mean above? How does saying "actual infinites don't exist" compromise an atheist's world view? What exactly is the atheist's world view?

I think it's obvious that an actual infinite cannot exist. There are many cute paradoxes out there - like the hotel one - that prove this. I'm sure you already know this. So, like I always ask Grip - what's the point of your question? Are you actually trying to gather more information on infinites, are you trying to prove god, are you trying to bash atheists, or what?

I am not trying to bash atheists.I think its a rather interesting discussion.

You see,atlian,if actual infinites can't exist,it means that any scientific theory that entails actual infinites is wrong.

So any explanations of the universe that appeal to an infinite are wrong.eg Multi verse theory,an infinite universe etc.

It therefore means that the universe had a finite beginninig which follows that it had a first cause.an immaterial,non-physical,non-temperal powerful and personal first cause.i.e God.

I started this thread to see if anyone knows of any theory that supports actual infinites existing.because so far i have been unable to find any.

So atlian,you see the implications are that if actual infinites cannot exist,then you have to throw out all scientific theories which support infinites.And thus the Comological argument is the only one that makes sense.

[flexxxx]

The whole idea of god ( birth of religion ) was based on our lack of comprehension of what infinity actually is. It means that there is no end to the universe. If you think this is disturbing, think about the fact that if there was and end, you would have some sort of wall. and behind that wall, there would have to be something. Concepts like this are still very complex for our human minds to comprehend.

einstein went a long way into disputing the normal laws of physics and it will take something that radical to explain infinite ends.

As somone said, infinity cannot be explained mathematically yet.

We only have another 2 billion years to live on earth and im not sure that that's long enough for us to unravell all the unknows.

We have a choice though.
allow this to bother you and find the answers, or assume a lazy man's positon and adopt and say god created everything. "Did god always exist?? dont go there, you cant question God"

[Type R]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

infinity - 1 = infinity.

infinity + 1 = infinity.

Addition and subtraction are operations that are performed on singletons of a set, and not upon sets themselves.

Even finite sets are not subject to addition. Can one perform a function like, "all even numbers between 1 and 10 inclusive + 1 = all even numbers between 1 and 10 inclusive?" Wouldn't the "1" in this circumstance require further qualification? "1" is discrete, while "all even numbers between 1 and 10 inclusive" is a set.

What does "+ 1" mean in a circumstance like this? How does it differ from "1 + 1", if at all?

The normal "1" is universal, and can apply to any type of members - goat, hen, another number.

Let us enumerate "all even numbers between 1 and 10 inclusive": {2, 4, 6, 8, 10}.

Can we perform {2, 4, 6, 8, 10} + 1?

What exactly would that mean? What does the "1" mean?? Is it the same as {2, 4, 6, 8, 10} + {1}??

Would the result be {2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 1}??

Does the "1" mean "any admissible member" eg 2, 4 or 6 (even nos between 1 - 10 incl)?

I am defeated by this attempted operation between a singleton and a set.

In common life terms, "family + 1 newborn kid = family". "family - 1 family member who dies = family". But you see I am qualifying the "1" ie "newborn kid. But can I say "family + 1" ?? 1 what? 1 family? 1 kid? 1 dog? In mathematical terms, does the "1" already belong to the abstract set defined as "family"?

The nature of the operation "+" needs to be clarified in the original sample (infinity + 1 = infinity).

For example: You could narrow down "infinity" into "an infinitely large number" -- that would clear the confusion.

[Ndigila2]

Originally Posted by flexxxx

The whole idea of god ( birth of religion ) was based on our lack of comprehension of what infinity actually is. It means that there is no end to the universe. If you think this is disturbing, think about the fact that if there was and end, you would have some sort of wall. and behind that wall, there would have to be something. Concepts like this are still very complex for our human minds to comprehend.

Flexxx, the "god solution" isn't as simple as you claim it to be. If ancient man saw lightning for the very first time, a god, with complex worship rituals and commandments to obey, certainly isn't his simplest response. If "god" was the answer to everything unknown, then the "god solution" was a desperate solution and not a first-reaction solution. And if it was a desparate solution, you'd expect the belief in God to evolve over time, but that didn't happen. Besides, your answer is based on the premise that man was trying to explain exterior natural phenomenon, which (apart from death) probably wasn't the case.

[Type R]

Originally Posted by flexxxx

As somone said, infinity cannot be explained mathematically yet.

Aiiesshhhhh!!! bwana...even if you did not go thru Abstract Algebra class in undergrad, the Internet is a resource available to all.

...from wiki: -

In axiomatic set theory and the branches of logic, mathematics, and computer science that use it, the axiom of infinity is one of the axioms of Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory.
...
In words, there is a set I (the set which is postulated to be infinite), such that the empty set is in I and such that whenever any x is a member of I, the set formed by taking the union of x with its singleton {x} is also a member of I.

[flexxxx]

I honestly think it was. Before when we were hunters, no one cared about where we came from. all we wanted to do was survive. Once we settled down, we had more time on our hands to actually contemplate our own existence ( considered by most as a natural mistake ).

Now by nature, Humans are inquisitive, just like the poster wants to comprehend the meaning of infinity and its implications. think about solitary confinement, why is it such a troubling experiece? because the human brain always wants to be aware of what is going on. the fact that things happen around you all the time,will want you to have an explanation for them. We all had some sort of religions. people went to great lengths to try and understand nature in relation to them. ( EG Mayans with the Golden Mean or Fibbionachi ), the whole basis of any form of religion was to put a rest on this assult on the brain by the lack of knowledge. It provided some sort of solace for one's ignorance and meant you dont have to be troubled. just "Hand your troubles to god".

that is my link with Infinity. Instead of waiting forever to understand an endless list of things, leave it to a super human being and that will be an artifisual end to your worries and anxieties.

remove god from the equation and tell me what todays date is (not 2008 AD), remove christ and give me a day when we would have started to count the centuries from hence meanign today is such and such a date.

Religion formed a base for sanity and the fact that it provides so many people with a finite begining and a finite end makes it a very attractive option for anyone with a troubled comprehension of their surroundings.

[flexxxx]

Originally Posted by Type R

Aiiesshhhhh!!! bwana...even if you did not go thru Abstract Algebra class in undergrad, the Internet is a resource available to all.

...from wiki: -

In axiomatic set theory and the branches of logic, mathematics, and computer science that use it, the axiom of infinity is one of the axioms of Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory.
...
In words, there is a set I (the set which is postulated to be infinite), such that the empty set is in I and such that whenever any x is a member of I, the set formed by taking the union of x with its singleton {x} is also a member of I.

poa poa. just a lay mans explanation to that. thanks for the info though.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by Ndigila2

Scientists do have their theories, but empirical evidence is I don't think so. For instance, I don't think there is empirical evidence for the mulit-verse theory.

From what I know, the multiverse theory is not regarded as a serious scientific theory by scientists.

[Nxele]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

What comes to mind when you think of the word infinity?It means having no limits or boundaries in time and space or in magnitude.

But can an actual infinity exist?Infinites in theory do exist,potential and conceptual infinites.

But think of a hotel with an infinite number of rooms with infinite number of guests.The hotel is full.Since every room is occupied.

But what happens when one guest leaves?The hotel now should not be full.it should have one room free.right? wrong!

infinity - 1 = infinity.

infinity + 1 = infinity.
So adding or subtracting from an infinite is pointless.it will still remain infinite.

So back to our hotel,it seems that our hotel will still be full even if 100 guests leave.How can that be and we can clearly see empty rooms?so is the hotel full or not?

Another simpler example is,if an actual infinite past exists,then how long would it take to traverse that past?an infinite amount of time.Meaning that that past cannot be traversed.

If for example our universe always existed,,had an infinite past,then how long would it have taken the universe to reach the present time?an infinite amount of time.Meaning it would have never reached the present time.It would have forever existed in the past.

I think Actual infinites are impossible.They lead to paradoxes.And this is significant because it possess a problem to an Atheistic world view.

It means that our universe had a beginning.Our universe is not infinite.it could not have existed forever.

If matter came into existence with the "creation" of the universe.Then what created the universe?it can't be something physical,since everything i.e physical came into existence with the universe.

A few Atheists are aware of the problem of accepting the conclusion that actual infinites do not exist,bcoz it compromises their world view.it becomes increasingly impossible to account for the universe.

So whats your take?

@ernestombayo7

Infinity actually exists .

FYI there can be no hotel with an infinite number of rooms with an infinite number of people . Simply check this : the worlds population is 5.2 billion can u fit the whole world's population in ur hotel with 'inifnite number of rooms' ?

Even if there was a hotel with an infinite number of rooms , with an occupancy of inifinte number of people then one of the guests leave , then the number of people remainning will be a greater number tending towards infinity but not infinity .

FYI there is no : infinity + 1 , but there is a greater number tending towards infinity . Did u ever get a chance to define '0' (zero) and the number 'r' in class ?