[teejay]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

You have to show that the teachings are also in the Quran. Remember Muslims do not use the Bible as a source of instructions.

grip daddy, I don't have to do that. I only have to use what muslims themselves say, against them. Jesus is called Issa in the Koran and Muslims call him a prophet who preceeded and foresaw the coming of Mohammed. Ask any muslim about proof of this, and they quickly take you to the biblical promises of the coming of a comforter whom they interpret to mean Mohammed.

My point therefore is that if they can believe that portion of the bible, then they must believe also in everything else that Issa is saying in the bible. And Issa said Fasting should not be done to impress other people. Matthew 6:17-18, "But when you fast, put on festive clothing, so that no one will suspect you are hungry, except your Father who knows every secret. And He will reward you."

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

We Muslims accepts all Prophet and their teachings! Quran 3:84 “Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah, and what was revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibraaheem (Abraham), and Ismaa’eel (Ishmail), and Ishaaq (Isac), and Ya’qoob (Jacob), and the tribes, and what was given to Moosaa (Moses), and ‘Eesaa (Jesus), and the Prophets from their Lord. We do not separate between anyone from them, and we submit to Him (Allah) as Muslims.”

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

First you should know that, it is a proven fact that the Bible can not be taken as a reliable source.

Okay, Muhammad, compare the two statements above. Where do you get the teachings of those Prophets you've mentioned, if the Bible (which you've called an unreliable source) is the sole place Muslims can find it? Why do you call the Bible an unreliable source while at the same time continually quote from it? This is the point Teejay and I are trying to drive home. Which goes back to the challenge I presented to you. If Christians deviated from Christ's teachings before 600 A.D. you have to historically show a change, before making a theological argument. (All the evidences you've presented so far were soundly refuted).

By the way, I don't believe all Muslims show off, in fact, some Christians really show off.

[Muhammad_4]

Where do you get the teachings of those Prophets you've mentioned, if the Bible (which you've called an unreliable source) is the sole place Muslims can find it? Why do you call the Bible an unreliable source while at the same time continually quote from it?

From Quran, I said early that we use Quran as a standard. Simply the Torah and Gospel we have in our hands had been changed and you know this very well that your Scholars had changes these Books, and played around with the texts of the Books, and distorted what was in those Books of beliefs, monotheism , and faith , changing it to polytheism , disbelief, and rejecting what was in them of laws!!
So if this was their (your Scholars) position regarding their Books which they claim to have faith in, then how would it be difficult for them to disbelieve Muhammad, and what he came with of the Qur’aan, which no falsehood comes to it from before it nor after it?!
So, Quran is the master or protector over all of the (previous) messages (revelations, scriptures), I do continually quote from the Bible, but after checking it with the protecter of scriptures (Quran).
No one here has ever ever refuted me soundly, the truth does not need to be assisted by lies, confusions, arrogance.
I went beyond 600 yrs you requered when I showed you what Jacob said to his sons about the coming of Shiloh from you Bible and Quran.
Ndigila and Co! if you all reject what this message contains of realities, and you dispute and argue regarding that, then verily I call you all to invoke the curse of Allah, just as Allaah commanded His truthful and trustworthy Messenger (Muhammad) to do. Allaah said to him (Muhammad peace be upon him), “Then whoever disputes with you concerning him (Issa-Jesus) after (all this) knowledge that has come to you, (i.e.Issa- Jesus) being a slave of Allâh, and having no share in Divinity) say: (O Muhammad) "Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves - then we pray and invoke (sincerely) the Curse of Allah upon those who lie.” [3:61]
Let us we do this, so the curse of Allah will be upon a liar between us (regarding the matter)
And for myself, and for every Muslim there is a good example in that, with Muhammad (peace be upon him).
And may peace be upon whoever follows the right guidance.

[ndigila]

Muhammad, do you know the difference between a historical argument and a theological argument?

[teejay]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

I dont know what to say! May be it is your Church leaders who should be blamed for your ill manners, may be yourself, or the way you have been raised! I dont know!
Because, first you people here accused all Muslims for showing off without any proof! can any intelligent man claim this, let alone a kid!

Insults!? Hhhm, I must say am not surprised because the humongous majority of muslims when faced with questions often bully violently and exhibit both intolerance and supremacist. They are highly inflammable and can explode if they are not treated preferentially and with respect. At the same time, they abuse others and violate the rights of people of other faiths. Before you, there were many and these are same insults they always resorted to. The only muslim I found rational in Mashada was Coach. Where did he go? I miss him.

Let me tell you one thing, one does not need to be a professor or a detective, leave alone being a staunch Mohammedan to prove that another person is showing off. So quit asking bigoted juvenile religious queries.

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

So the question now is: "Jesus' teachings on fasting, not teachings on fasting".
If I understand correctly is that: if we Muslims claim to accept Jesus, why dont we accept what he taught about fasting?, why do we have our own way of fasting different from Jesus`way?
First you should know that, it is a proven fact that the Bible can not be taken as a reliable source.

When you say that the bible is unreliable you must furnish us with adequate reasons, otherwise the above statement brings in loud ambiguity. Nevertheless, I gather the sole reason for your statement is simply supremacist and nothing more. I don't mind you elevating the Quran over the bible by a million levels high up, but tells us what makes the bible inutile.

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

Second, you should know that that legislation differs from one Shari'ah (laws)to another,while the principles and beliefs remain the same in all of them. So obviously Jesus shariah (law), or any other prophet shariah (Law) which he came with differ in lagislation to another prophet.

Are you trying to offer an excuse in Mohammed's place? If so you are doing badly. Give it another go. Frankly speaking I did not expect you to say this after rubbishing the bible. You basically have no point after rubbishing the bible. You simple cannot talk about anything biblical to justify your arguments. Forget legislations or sharia and whatever else you call them.

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

Making of portraits was allowed in the Shari'ah of Sulayman ,Solomon (peace be upon him) but is prohibited in our Shari'ah.
Making prostration of salutation was permitted in the Shari'ah of Yusuf ,Joseph(peace be upon him) but is illegal in ours.(you have in Quran where Jacob make prostration to Joseph)
The Qiblah of people before us used to be towards Bayt Al-Maqdis (Jerusalem), but for us it is towards Ka'bah (Mecca).You see, when we pray we do face Kaabah in Mecca, why dont you ask us why we dont face bayt l maqdis in Jerusalem?
In a similar way, marriage between brothers and sisters was permitted in the Shari'ah of Adam (peace be upon him) as opposed to those that came afterwards.
Allaah allowed Adam (peace be upon him) to marry his daughters to his sons for necessity. Every couple used to have a boy and a girl. Hence, he married the girl of one couple to the boy of another.
So the legislation of fasting of Jesus teachings (if it is proven as the Bible says) differs to Muhammad teaching of fasting but the principles and beliefs remain the same in all of them.
I trust that I have answered that question.

Excuse me Sir, don't talk about things you don't understand? You will ruin yourself, mentally. Let us stick to Fasting okay.

[teejay]

By the way Mohamed when it comes to the question of unreliability, I can show so many unreliable assertions in the Quran, it will leave shaking out of faith.

From how the Quran lied about Mary and Jesus Christ’s birth through its scientific inaccuracies, unprovable miracles, disingenuous teaching, to its unspiritual.

[4j4]

@Mohammad_4
From Quran, I said early that we use Quran as a standard. Simply the Torah and Gospel we have in our hands had been changed and you know this very well that your Scholars had changes these Books, and played around with the texts of the Books, and distorted what was in those Books of beliefs, monotheism , and faith , changing it to polytheism , disbelief, and rejecting what was in them of laws!!


You are still making statements but not backing them up with historical evidence. As Ndigila pointed out, if Christians deviated from Christ's teachings before 600 A.D. you have to historically show that deviation, before making your theological argument. Please provide your convincing historical evidence.

@Mohammad_4
So if this was their (your Scholars) position regarding their Books which they claim to have faith in, then how would it be difficult for them to disbelieve Muhammad, and what he came with of the Qur’aan, which no falsehood comes to it from before it nor after it?!
So, Quran is the master or protector over all of the (previous) messages (revelations, scriptures), I do continually quote from the Bible, but after checking it with the protecter of scriptures (Quran).

You quote only from the Bible when it's convenient to your beliefs and this smacks of disingenuous theology. You make the case that the Bible is unreliable and yet you still quote from it as truth. You become inconsistent and unconvincing when you postulate that the Bible is untrustworthy but then peddle parts of it as legitimate. The Bible is either all true and reliable or all false and untrustworthy. You can't have it both ways!!

[grip_daddy]

The Bible is either all true and reliable or all false and untrustworthy. You can't have it both ways!!

Professional liars know how to twist the truth, or state numerous truths with some lies here and there. If a document contains any proven and acceptable truth, such a document can still be quoted despite the lies perceived to be apparent.

I don't think Muhammad is committing any crime by quoting the Bible when it fits him, but he must prove beyond any reasonable doubt that his methodology of test is of acceptable standard rationally. That is, he must prove that the Quran meets the required standards to be a Standard of measure.

Those against the parameters must also show where the said standard deviates from the would be an acceptable standard.

[Muhammad_4]

Grip_daddy wrote That is, he must prove that the Quran meets the required standards to be a Standard of measure.

I have already done that in another thread.

4j4 wrote:You are still making statements but not backing them up with historical evidence. As Ndigila pointed out, if Christians deviated from Christ's teachings before 600 A.D. you have to historically show that deviation, before making your theological argument. Please provide your convincing historical evidence.

First you have to admit that you have been defeated theological, So we have to check for the history if it can support you or not.Also, you have to tell us that history is more reliable for you than the Bible! just do that first.

teejay wrote: By the way Mohamed when it comes to the question of unreliability, I can show so many unreliable assertions in the Quran..."

I love this! not me, Quran itself challenges you to go-in into it and find mistakes, contradictions etc Quran 4:82 Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions". So, you are welcome teejay.

teejay wrote: Insults!? Hhhm, I must say am not surprised because the humongous majority of muslims when faced with questions often bully violently and exhibit both intolerance and supremacist. They are highly inflammable and can explode if they are not treated preferentially and with respect.

Please bring your proof.

teejay wrote: Let me tell you one thing, one does not need to be a professor or a detective, leave alone being a staunch Mohammedan to prove that another person is showing off. So quit asking bigoted juvenile religious queries.

This is not only Muslims who practice this, but in each and every the so called civilazation Nations are practicing this in their daily life. If You have a claim/dispute, you go to a court then they will ask for your proof/evidence/ witnesses, you provide proof and they cross examine your evidences and judge upon it, generally speaking the burden of bringing proof lies upon a claimant.I am sure that this is a common practice where you are.

teejay wrote:When you say that the bible is unreliable you must furnish us with adequate reasons

I did it in the thread "Is the Bible reliable?"
All praise be to Allah.

[4j4]

Grip_daddy wrote That is, he must prove that the Quran meets the required standards to be a Standard of measure.

Muhammad_4 wrote "I have already done that in another thread."

Muhammad_4 please provide the link to the thread you talk about because as far as I am concerned you haven't proved that the Quran should be taken as a "standard measure" (including your posts in other threads).

Muhammad_4 wrote "First you have to admit that you have been defeated theological, So we have to check for the history if it can support you or not.Also, you have to tell us that history is more reliable for you than the Bible! just do that first."

You are skirting the issue...which is to prove historically that the Christians deviated from Christ's teachings before 600 A.D. I don't have to prove anything because I haven't made any claim. On the other hand, you say that Christians deviated from Christ's teaching. So the onus is on you.