[grip_daddy]

ATLian,

How did the Jews manage to influence their God in the religious beliefs of the Anglo-Saxons? The Britons had their own god but they were persuaded by an insignificant nation or group of few converts to forsake theirs. How rational is that?

[al-zalzalah]

Originally Posted by ATLian

Your post has got me wondering, why did the Jewish God get prominence above all other gods? ... Something other than human influence must be responsible for His fame and prominence.

The reason why Jehovah is very prominent is you live in a country that was once colonized by Brits, who believe in Jehovah, so we're all about Jenhovah. You watch the western media, and the west is all about Jehovah. Whenever god is referenced in almost all things you do - the movies you watch, the music you listen to, the friends you talk to, the books and papers you read, the politicians you listen to, etc - chances are that the god being referenced will always be Jehovah because of where you were born and raised. Pole to burst your bubble, but it has absolutely nothing to do with Jehovah being real or there being a spiritual influence. It's 100% because of where you live and what you've always been exposed to.

But don't sahau that there are 2 billion peple in China and India who have no idea what the heck the Holy Spirit is, or that the Christian god is called Jehovah. Just like you have no idea what a Sikh has to do to get to heaven, there are millions of Sikhs who have never heard of getting saved or taking communion or whatever. There are a billion plus people in Asia who, when god is referenced, they think of Brahma. Add another billion Muslims who automatically think of Allah. I'm sure they also wonder why in their world, the most prominent god is the god they believe in.

mmm. took the words right out of my mouth.
there were millenia where buddhism had many more adherents than christianity. hinduism too.

christianity is a widespread religion now. but in time another religion will replace it in 'first' place.

[al-zalzalah]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Why did He gain prominence? Consider the history of they that formulated Him. The hatred and insignificance of that nation.
Please answer that by analysing the negativity attributed to Him which would rather had made Him disappear in oblivion just as the Luo god did instead of the current fame and popularity.

who is "he"? jesus? but the jews don't worship jesus, grip.
in fact, christianity is so far removed from what the jews practice that it could be said that christians are worshipping a greek god with a mangled jewish name (from yehoshua to yeshua to jesus).

the luo god didn't vanish into oblivion. si luo christians worship nyasaye, just as surely as luo traditionalists worshipped nyasaye before them?
and demons are called jochiende, when in the past jochiende were spirits with no linkage to lucifer or hell. maybe africans as a whole are still worshipping their traditional gods, especially when they worship in their native languages.

going by your theory, which you use to claim that the jewish god reigns supreme, then even me i can claim that the luo still worship the luo god. after all, the nyasaye of luo christians has the name and characteristics of their traditional god (supreme god, creator of all etc).

by the way, jewish history is not that unique. if you take the history of any group of people, you will find similar stories of persecution, of exile, of being conquered by other nations, of times when they were victorious over others. and if you were to convert to that people's religion, you would find that their story was inspiring, and surely proof that their god was true.
the story of lwanda magere tells of luos living under persecution, does it not. and it sounds remarkably like lwanda magere is a messiahlike figure or samsonlike figure, come to save his people from the enemy. there's an oracle communicating god's will to the people... remarkably like an angel, isn't it?
and if you couple 20th century kenyan politics with these details, and throw obama's candicacy into the mix, isn't it possible for luos to claim that they are the chosen ppl? and that they are simultaneously despised and envied by fellownationals and by the world? and just imagine, if we tie the luo story to that of their brethren in northern ug, and southern sudan and ethiopia, si it becomes an even more convincing storyline, what with the persecution and all?

i only use luos as an example because that was your chosen example. but if you give me 1 day, i could create a similar storyline about kikuyus. human history is the same, past and present, black or white. just use your imagination kidogo and u'll see what i mean.

[YB*]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

ATLian,

How did the Jews manage to influence their God in the religious beliefs of the Anglo-Saxons? The Britons had their own god but they were persuaded by an insignificant nation or group of few converts to forsake theirs. How rational is that?

In a very loose way Grip, Christianity has developed like the Safaricom network; fashioned for the poor man, made more acceptable for the poor man, it became very acceptable, because as it spread, it had no human representation like other religions, which had 'demi-gods' in men, of which these men were deemed unfair by the general populace because of their uppity behaviours and heavy taxation.

The anglo saxons and Normans lived a terrible life of serfdom, land was owned by lords and kings, and by extension, the common folk were slaves to these lords, so when the disciples crossed the seas with the new religion that seemed to favour the poor, a far cry from 'athurian legends' and 'greek legends' that favour the high and mighty reception was very good

The most effective verse has always been the beatitudes "the poor shall inherit the earth" and "its easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle than a rich man to go into heaven", Even Constantine as he made christianity 'the religion' it was because it had become a mass movement that was threatening his empire, more than his belief in christianity.

This God, champion of the poor: if we look at todays statistics (taking into account there are no serfdoms), we see something in the zone of 80%* of the population living belowthe poverty line, back then it must have been worse, the only religion that moved from down going up in terms of class, unlike others.

Take note that Islam is premised on the same principles only that it came 600 yrs late - principles in terms of approach.

If you research zoroast, you will find that Jesus and christianity is quite similar to zoroastarianism, many a scholar claim christianity and jesus borrowed a lot from zoroast. As for jews they have found a trojan horse in christianity, because of the OT connection, jews are protected under christian auspices without them necessarily having to be christians, hence they can afford to have 'Jews by birth only' policy, otherwise to survive, jews would have had to accept conversion - see Israel and Christian American backing

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

ATLian,

How did the Jews manage to influence their God in the religious beliefs of the Anglo-Saxons? The Britons had their own god but they were persuaded by an insignificant nation or group of few converts to forsake theirs. How rational is that?

Grip,

it's the exact same way a small group of Christian missionaries came to Africa, convinced us that we were savages who worshipped savage gods, and convinced us to ditch our gods and worship their gods and join his religion. It is irrational, but it has happened all over the world numerous times.

Regarding how Christianity was spread, don't confuse the Jewish religion (Judaism) and Christianity. Judaism hasn't spread, it has seen almost no growth, and it is still largely confined to Israel and a few scattered believers around the world.

As for Christianity, it was spread by fellow jungus. When the Romans (who were of course jungus) accepted Christianity, then by virtue of having the biggest guns at that time, they were able to spread the word of the Christian god. Don't sahau that during this time Christianity was spreading, the ROman Empire encompassed most of Europe as we know it today. So those subjects in all those countries were forced to take onto the new Roman god - Jehovah - as their god.

Before Jehovah, Jupiter used to be the chief Roman god. He met his demise when the Roman emperor ordered all his people and subjects to convert to Christianity. I guarantee you that if the Emperor hadn't made that decree, Jupiter would have been the main god in all those conquered countries, including Britain. And by extension, we would currently be worshipping Jupiter in Kenya coz the Brits would have impossed that on us.

Had that happened, all you Christians who chant daily how Jehovah is great and how he is the only god and how he created the world in 6 days would be today chanting with the same fervor how Jupiter and his wife Juno are great, etc etc etc. It's amazing how one man's decree can change the lives and destinies of billions, and make one mythical god (Jehovah) a "true god" that millions would die and suffer for!

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by YB*

In a very loose way Grip, Christianity has developed like the Safaricom network; fashioned for the poor man, made more acceptable for the poor man ....

I agree. Jesus was firstly for the poor, then the rich. Seeing that majority of the people were poor, and this was the first time a god had them first in his pririties, it didn't take a lot for the poor to identify with Christianity. Also unlike most old religions and gods, this one had a very forgiving god. Then there was the hope of salvation where all could be forgiven just by apologising once to god. No more expensive cleansing rituals or sacrificing animals or other people. Just say "I'm sorry" and you have a clean slate and can go straight to heaven. Plus Christianity still went along with many of prevailing ideas of the time e.g. women are inferior to men, homosexuality and witch-craft are evil, etc. Perfect match and a perfect fit!