[reggie_woic]

lending with interest in not usury. usury is iunlawful.
lending with reasonable and accepted interest rates within the law is fine.

[ATLian]

Can anybody point out to the verse where it says god is against interest? I thought god was all for profit (and interest is a way of making profits).

Remember that Jesus parable of the rich man who left his 3 servants with money. Servants 1 and 2 went and doubled the money through whatever investments. Servant 3 dug a hole and hid the money. When the rich man returned, he praised Servants 1 and 2 for doubling the money, and he chastised and threw out Servant 3 for not doing anything to increase the money! To me that shows that profit, as long as it's legally and morally obtained, is not wrong.

I mean, if it costs a man 10 shillings to make mandazi, and he always sells them for 10 shillings, what is the point? Surely if I can see that it is a futile exercise, then god with his infinite wisdom can also see that. What would be wrong with the man selling the mandazi for 12 shillings, and with that 2 shillings profit he manages to get his family ahead?

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by ndigila

You've opened a can of worms with that question. ATLian, where are u?

I'm here.

This is the thing about outdated laws. For god, a sin has always been, is, and will always be a sin. That will never change. So if god says "Action A is a sin", then no matter what happens, Action A will always be a sin.

For man, we change with the times. That is why in the 1800's slavery was legal and now it's illegal, ama why zamani it was encouraged to beat your wife if she misbehaves but now that is thoroughly illegal.

The fact that there are so many outdated laws shows that it is man who wrote the Bible and those laws, and has now had to conform with modern society and civilization.

[ATLian]

2. Laws that governed Israel as a nation (for example Kenya is a nation) of which other nations could/can borrow.

That makes no sense at all. Why should god who created every man give laws only to the Israelites in Arabia, and none to the Hotentots booting around the Kalahari? Why didn't god give universal laws to all men?


3. Laws that governed the human relations considering the imperfection of the human being. That is, God knew that man cannot keep is moral code, so He gave laws by which the imperfect human being could/can live in harmony with one another.

Again this makes no sense. God is perfect, and his perfection doesn't allow for short-cuts. As in, if god knows that man is just one horny beast who will never stop having sex, he won't modify the adultery laws to suit the imperfect beings. His laws are just there, perfect by themselves, and it is up to humans to do whatever they can to follow them.

Also what sense would it make for god to make laws which he KNOWS man cannot follow, then to punish that man with eternal hell for not following those laws which he KNEW man wouldn't follow?

[jasakwa]

ATLian-Can anybody point out to the verse where it says god is against interest? I thought god was all for profit (and interest is a way of making profits).

If you lend money to any of My people who are poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest. Ex 22.25

Take no usury or interest from him; but fear your God, that your brother may live with you. You shall not lend him your money for usury, nor lend him your food at a profit. Lev 25.35-37


Remember that Jesus parable of the rich man who left his 3 servants with money. Servants 1 and 2 went and doubled the money through whatever investments. Servant 3 dug a hole and hid the money. When the rich man returned, he praised Servants 1 and 2 for doubling the money, and he chastised and threw out Servant 3 for not doing anything to increase the money! To me that shows that profit, as long as it's legally and morally obtained, is not wrong.

This was a parable and not literal bibilical instruction.The investment symbolised the good done in our lifetime on earth and the profit symbolised the benefits that we will reap in the after life from the good we did in this life.Money represented the resources at hand that enable us to do good or bad.

I mean, if it costs a man 10 shillings to make mandazi, and he always sells them for 10 shillings, what is the point? Surely if I can see that it is a futile exercise, then god with his infinite wisdom can also see that. What would be wrong with the man selling the mandazi for 12 shillings, and with that 2 shillings profit he manages to get his family ahead?

In the literal sense God is not against you profiting in your business.I thought the arguement was about charging interests on loans and on literal view the bible only restrict christians when dealing with the poor,not the wealthy.

[ATLian]

If you lend money to any of My people who are poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest. Ex 22.25

Gotcha. Lakini please notice the part in red. I assume this means that you can charge interest to someone who is not poor. Also you can charge interest to everyone, including the poor, from those who aren't god's people.

BTW I just read the rest of Chapter 22, it's quite interesting:


22:2-3 ... a thief ... should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

If you catch a thief and he cannot pay restitution for what he stole, then he is to be sold as a slave. Meaning that god does approve of slavery.


22:16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.

I thought that is adultery, and god categorically made it clear that adulterers were to be stoned to death. Why the exception in this case?


22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods

The gods? I thought there is only one god? Why is god talking in plural?


22:29-30 Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me. Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, and with thy sheep: seven days it shall be with his dam; on the eighth day thou shalt give it me.

Is this an endorsement of human sacrifice? Especially since we know that oxen and sheep used to be sacrificed to god, and they are mentioned here in the same breath? Also why does god want liqors offered to him? I take it to mean that this, and the fact that Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine, shows that god has absolutely no problem with alcohol.



In the literal sense God is not against you profiting in your business.I thought the arguement was about charging interests on loans and on literal view the bible only restrict christians when dealing with the poor,not the wealthy.

What's the difference between lending a poor person $10 and asking for $12 back, or selling a poor person something at $12 when that something costs you $10? In both cases, you made $2 from him, the only difference is that one is defined as interest and the other is defined as profit?

[DEEKAMATA]

Originally Posted by missed call

well i also think it calls us to be fair.
what do u mean "outdated"? is there a thing in the bible/quaran that's outdated? put in another way, r there laws in the bible that were once applicant but never today?

Yes there are some outdated laws. Why is it that people who God trusted..people like Abraham, David, Solomon and others were encouraged to be poligamists but now we are taught it is a sin to be a polygamist.

[jasakwa]

Gotcha. Lakini please notice the part in red. I assume this means that you can charge interest to someone who is not poor. Also you can charge interest to everyone, including the poor, from those who aren't god's people.

Not to the poor as the main reason for exempting the poor from interest charged loans was done out of compassion and mercy.
,read this passage;

Leviticus 25:35-38 (New International Version)
" 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. Do not take interest of any kind [a] from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. 38 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.



"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you" (Matt 5:42). So too our Lord says, "And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, in order to receive back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men" (Luke 6:34).


BTW I just read the rest of Chapter 22, it's quite interesting:


... a thief ... should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then ]he shall be sold for his theft.If you catch a thief and he cannot pay restitution for what he stole, then he is to be sold as a slave. Meaning that god does approve of slavery.

No Atlian slavery is man's invention as discussed before man was not created to be like a robot,he was given a chance to make some decisions on his way of life and where his acts were not proper God gave him guidance. A thief paying for his dues through working withotu pay is a just thing.Yes God allowed slavery but the kind of slavery that existed in Israel was vastly different from the tyrannical forms of slavery that have existed throughout history.
Furthermore, God provided guidelines to protect slaves. For example, a slave who was maimed by his master would be set free. If a slave died because his master beat him, the master could be punished with death. Women captives could become slaves, or they could be taken as wives. But they were not to be used for mere sexual gratification. The gist of the Law must have led righthearted Israelites to treat slaves with respect and kindness, as if these were hired laborers

And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.

This was a way of protecting the maids from sexual abuse by their masters.How many maids suffer this today?just read about it in the news.The reason for marrying her is to prevent adultery and not the other way round.


Thou shalt not revile the gods

The gods? I thought there is only one god? Why is god talking in plural?

In the old and eve modern times some people have a habit of worshiping unknown spirits as their gods.There are other gods but our God is one and supreme.There is verse that also says,Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods.or this one Jeremiah 16:11 then you shall say to them: 'Because your fathers have forsaken me, says the LORD, and have gone after other gods and have served and worshiped them, and have forsaken me and have not kept my law

Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: [b]the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me. Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, and with thy sheep: seven days it shall be with his dam; on the eighth day thou shalt give it me.

We discussed this in length before giving of the first borns was not human sacrifice but was a dedication made through a priest.It was believed that all first borns belonged to the Lord.If the first borns were lietrally sacrificed then we wouldnt be talking about teh first borns of abraham,isaac,jacob and the bibilical figures who followed.


Also why does god want liqors offered to him? I take it to mean that this, and the fact that Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine, shows that god has absolutely no problem with alcohol.

Wine was part of harvest which was also to be tithed,Ofcourse the alcohol(wine) was used by the priest to sanitise the utensils as the priests were not allowed to drink.

[ATLian]

Yes God allowed slavery .... God provided guidelines to protect slaves

You miss the bottom line, that slavery is a terrible crime against humanity. The fact that god allowed it and even created laws for it just shows that he supported a barbaric crime. It's almost like saying god allowed rape, but he provided special guidelines for those being raped!



This was a way of protecting the maids from sexual abuse by their masters.

That doesn't matter. The punishment for adultery is death by stoning, and here god gives out a different "punishment" for the exact same crime. I don't care how you look at it, it's a blatant contradiction!




We discussed this in length before giving of the first borns was not human sacrifice but was a dedication made through a priest.

OK, what about the first borns of the animals mnetioned, were they to be given as a sacrifice or as a dedication to the priests? I think you're dead wrong on that one. And again I ask, if god has no issue drowning every little baby girl because some men were worshipping different gods, what would be the big deal with him getting human sacrifices? Doesn't all life belong to god, and isn't your death ultimately up to him to decide? I just know that if there was a verse saying "I the lord your god love human sacrifices", you'd be defending that saying that god can do whatever he wants with us!



Ofcourse the alcohol(wine) was used by the priest to sanitise the utensils as the priests were not allowed to drink

That is absolute garbage. For alcohol to be used as a sanitizer, the alcohol content must be greater than 60%, and wine is in the 12% alcohol range. Also I can guarantee you anything that those priests in the Biblical days had no freaking idea that alcohol could be used as a sanitizer, seeing that that is something that was discovered centuries later!

Finally, the 12 men who were meant to preach god's word after Jesus died were all given wine by Jesus himself at the last supper. I assume they also had the wine he made at that wedding. It's clear that god had no problem with alcohol.

[CertifiedDimePiece]

the issue on lending money...

there is a verse in Deutronomy..I will get it for you as soon as i find it..but that verse is very specific am sure that you will find your answers.