[t.D.A.]

I write this, not to discuss the merits or the nature/nurture or any aspect of homosexuality. Instead I write this to homosexuals and supporters of homosexuals and their rights to remind them of a couple of things I have observed, lest they forget.

1) Christians believe they have the truth: In case people forgot, when someone declares themselves a born again Christian, they are saying that not only is Jesus their saviour but Jesus is the truth and everything in the Bible will dictate the way they live their lives.
If the book declares that something is outside of God's law it immediately jumps out of the Christian's moral code because anything that goes against God's truth goes against truth as Christians understand it.

Therefore understand, we can argue until the cows come home and you can viciously attack Christians and label them "fanatic", "fundamentalist" and all sorts of things until you are blue in the face but what it ultimately boils down to is....it Goes against God's truth as Christians understand it, therefore it is outside of their truth. Speaking of which:

2) Isn't Viciously Attacking Christians the Way Some of Y'all Do, the Pot Calling the Kettle Black: There is no denying that there are some extreme folk out there who try and defend the "purity and sanctity" of humanity in some pretty violent ways but for the most part Christians live by the simple creed of "hate the sin, love the sinner!" You won't find people ganging up on Sunday afternoon's to come beat you up. You'll probably find them coming to your house and talking to you about the truth as they understand it. For those of you who declare, " this is who I am, if you can't accept my homosexuality, you are not accepting me,", you drew the line in the sand. Christians who follow God's law must love you in spite of whether or not you act against their law or define yourself in ways that go outside of their faith. Open your doors, hearts and minds to them, they are some of the best people I know.

This post is too long already, let me end it there...........

[reggie_woic]

thanks for the post, t.D.A
i'm a christian (catholic) myself, and i try never to impose my beliefs on others; not fellow christians, and sure as hell not to non-christians.
i've come to realize that the "because God says so" reason may work for me, it is not necessarily enough for others...definitely not enough to
deny anyone rights that i have zero say in.


we've come a long way in understanding homosexuality since the bible was written. though "unnatural" and "not normal", people need to understand that
its not a choice, its not a "disease" and there's not a cure. gays don't choose their sexual orientation just like straights don't their own sexual orientation.

this is why, despite all my christian upbringing, am not against accomodating them.

[chotadipo]

Originally Posted by reggie_woic

...we've come a long way in understanding homosexuality since the bible was written. though "unnatural" and "not normal", people need to understand that its not a choice, its not a "disease" and there's not a cure. gays don't choose their sexual orientation just like straights don't their own sexual orientation...

Why are you engaging in falsities? What have you come to know that GOD did not know or did not reveal to his prophets when he was dictating the bible to them? What do you mean by and I quote, "..gays don't choose their sexual orientation just like straights...". For straight people, it is encoded in our DNA to behave the way we behave because of our biological make-up. Or you now want to tell me there is a gay gene and hence they cannot be held accountable for their orientation (I call it perversion)?

Reggie, you are stuttering and stammering with your conscious to please Rome. Just because some pope and a council of cardinals decide to accept gayism, and we all know why they did, does not make you an authority on gayism.

[reggie_woic]

- significant scientific study of human behavior is not older than 3 centuries.
bible was written millenia ago. i believe it is safe to say there are things they didn't know...like didn't they think the world was flat?

- there is no straight gene. there is no gay gene.

- catholic teachings are against homosexual behavior; i didn't say they favored them. call me a rogue catholic, but this has nothing to do with rome or the pope

- the only authority on gayism should be the gays.

[grip_daddy]

this is why, despite all my christian upbringing, am not against accomodating them.

All humans, according to the bible, are born sinners. Some are born with antisocial traits, others as rude, others with criminal or bully tendencies, etc. In essence, each human being that is born on earth is automatically a sinner, and that's why each human being needs a saviour.

If someone's sins manifest in killing due to inborn traits, do you accomodate him? If another's sins are manifest in scheming and lying to gain wealth or power, do you accomodate him? If another's sins are manifest in drug misuse, sexual perversion, parental disobedience, anarchy, drunkardness and/or any other sinful behavior directly prohibited by your bible or tradition given now that you are a Catholic, do you accommodate them?

One thing liberal Christians fail to do is to understand God's hatred for sin. Read this:

Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied the him? When ye say, Everyone that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; Or, where is the God judgment? Malachi 2:17

[chotadipo]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

All humans, according to the bible, are born sinners. Some are born with antisocial traits, others as rude, others with criminal or bully tendencies, etc. In essence, each human being that is born on earth is automatically a sinner, and that's why each human being needs a saviour.

If someone's sins manifest in killing due to inborn traits, do you accomodate him? If another's sins are manifest in scheming and lying to gain wealth or power, do you accomodate him? If another's sins are manifest in drug misuse, sexual perversion, parental disobedience, anarchy, drunkardness and/or any other sinful behavior directly prohibited by your bible or tradition given now that you are a Catholic, do you accommodate them?

One thing liberal Christians fail to do is to understand God's hatred for sin. Read this:

Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied the him? When ye say, Everyone that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; Or, where is the God judgment? Malachi 2:17

Grip_daddy, I think you are confusing issues here. The inherent sin you are talking about is not what you have mentioned above but what we are as a results of Adam and Eve's antiques. That is the original sin. And that sin is washed away once we accept Christ as our saviour. That is my understanding. All what you have mentioned are referred to us societal sins, and noen of them is someone born with.

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by chotadipo

All what you have mentioned are referred to us societal sins, and noen of them is someone born with.

I sin (whatever sin it is) manifest itself because I have a sinful nature due to the original sin. For example, my sin for being attracted to the same sex is because of my body's desire towards that direction. When I practice the body's desire, I affirm, or display, the part of my strongly inherent original sin.

Another example should be made. I may kill because of several reasons: 1. Because I want power, where does that want spring from? 2. Because I hate my victim, why do I hate him? 3. Because of revenge, why dont I have a forgiving mind? 4. Because of self defence, why want to defend my life? Why does he want to harm me? These questions tend to go past physical actions that are seen to the mind or desire in the body behind them.

So, if I portray my anger (in born inherited weakness) by killing people around, I am jailed. As a Christian who knows that since I can control my natural anger and act normally, I should also be able to control the natural inherited immoral mind or desire of same sex, and as I would shun away from the killer, so I should shun away from the homosexual.

The bible clearly teaches Christian separation from evil doers, not being equally yoked together. That is, not keeping quiet on their evils, and if after asking them softly and tenderly to change they refuse, casting your dust at their doors as Jesus adviced. You do not accommodate sinners.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by reggie_woic

bible was written millenia ago. i believe it is safe to say there are things they didn't know...like didn't they think the world was flat?

Reggie,

I thought god wrote the Bible (via man) and everything in the Bible is correct :-) The only way your statement can be true is if the Bible is 100% man-written, because then of course man didn't know everything. I don't know if you realize it, but your statement just kicked Christianity in the nuts.

Of course we know man, not god, wrote the Bible. It is very evident from their lack of information. Even Jesus (who is the almighty god) believed that diseases are caused by demons! God would have known that it's pathogens, but man didn't know that until centuries later! It would have been great to see Jesus cure a leper by saying "Depart from him, thou leprae bacteria!" instead of "Depart from him, thou demons".

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

If someone's sins manifest in killing due to inborn traits, do you accomodate him? If another's sins are manifest in scheming and lying to gain wealth or power, do you accomodate him?

You should not accomodate any sins that hurt other people, deny other people of their basic rights to life, freedom, etc. That's why rape and murder are sins. But when a grown man willingly bends over so another grown man can willingly screw him up the butt, and it is been done in the privacy of their own homes, how can this be a sin? How do you compare this to murder or rape?

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

One thing liberal Christians fail to do is to understand God's hatred for sin.

It's interesting that you write All humans, according to the bible, are born sinners. Some are born with antisocial traits, others as rude, others with criminal or bully tendencies, etc. In essence, each human being that is born on earth is automatically a sinner, and that's why each human being needs a saviour. If you're born with something, it means that (according to Christian thought) you were created that way by god. So the question is, why does god create you with something he hates? Why does god blame you for having something he willingly gave you when it was totally out of your choice to get that thing? God intentionally curses man by creating him with these negative traits so that man can require a saviour, then he blames you? WTF?

[reggie_woic]

grip,
the religious argument may be convincing to you personally, but that is as far as it goes. your fundamental beliefs are, i'm sorry, becoming a pain. the world is not flat.

if my very make up from birth is sin, wtf am i supposed to do? if you stick your nose out of leviticus, you'll realize that this cannot be helped, and that since no harm is done, theres nothing wrong with accomodation.

ever considered that maybe i was meant to be as i am?

ATLian,
the bible is a guide to spiritual life, not a solve-it manual for the future. i doubt God gave the writers a crash course in the sciences like geog ama psych...

as to why God appears against gayism in the bible - i don't know.
but here's my scapegoat:
1. was the bible inspired, or dictated verbatim?
2. weren't the writers probably straight men?
3. TRADUTORRE TRADITORE (the translator is the traitor)