[grip_daddy]

1. was the bible inspired, or dictated verbatim?
2. weren't the writers probably straight men?
3. TRADUTORRE TRADITORE (the translator is the traitor)]

I guess you should NOT use the bible as a source of any information concerning morality.

Dont you think the writers were against murder because they feared being killed? Against theft because they feared for their own property? Against divorce because they loved their wives too much? Against lying because they never lied?

I think the subject of biblical inspiration should be carefully examined before subjecting the bible into carnal interpretation.

About how you were brought up, that's totally an outrageous principle to use when dealing with morality from a Christian perspective. Aren't Christian admonished to follow Christ? Aren't they advised to have the mind that was in Jesus? If I may rationalise concepts in accordance to my upbringing, and that every Christian is adviced to follow suit, you wouldn't believe the chaos that would attend morality, relations, and life.

[grip_daddy]

God intentionally curses man by creating him with these negative traits so that man can require a saviour, then he blames you? WTF?

God did not create man with sinful traits. But for the sake of argument let's assume:

ATLian creates a free will being and tells her, "love me or I kill you!". The being, because she has free will, chooses not to love ATLian. Do you think it is fair to blame ATLian for the killing, or the being for choosing not to love? Especially now that the consequences of not loving were explicitly stated?

[al-zalzalah]

Originally Posted by t.D.A.

I write this, not to discuss the merits or the nature/nurture or any aspect of homosexuality. Instead I write this to homosexuals and supporters of homosexuals and their rights to remind them of a couple of things I have observed, lest they forget.

Therefore understand, we can argue until the cows come home and you can viciously attack Christians and label them "fanatic", "fundamentalist" and all sorts of things until you are blue in the face but what it ultimately boils down to is....it Goes against God's truth as Christians understand it, therefore it is outside of their truth.

my dear, you are absolutely free to believe what you want, but there's nobody who speaks for all christians. even though some people here would like to pretend that they do.

Originally Posted by chotadipo

Why are you engaging in falsities? What have you come to know that GOD did not know or did not reveal to his prophets when he was dictating the bible to them?

Reggie, you are stuttering and stammering with your conscious to please Rome. Just because some pope and a council of cardinals decide to accept gayism, and we all know why they did, does not make you an authority on gayism.

reggie here is speaking for himself and for his personal opinion as a christian. your being condescending towards catholicism doesn't change the fact that he has his own brain and conscience.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

God did not create man with sinful traits.

Grip,

you wrote, to quote you again, All humans, according to the bible, are born sinners. Some are born with antisocial traits, others as rude, others with criminal or bully tendencies, etc. In essence, each human being that is born on earth is automatically a sinner, and that's why each human being needs a saviour. According to Christianity, the way you are born is the exact way god created you. If you're born short, tall, ugly, smart, etc, it is because that is how god created you. Therefore if you were born a sinner, and you were born with Bully tendencies, then that is how god created you.

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

But for the sake of argument let's assume: ATLian creates a free will being and tells her, "love me or I kill you!". The being, because she has free will, chooses not to love ATLian. Do you think it is fair to blame ATLian for the killing, or the being for choosing not to love? Especially now that the consequences of not loving were explicitly stated?

If the being does have free will in the pure definition of the word (where ATLian has no idea what the being will do) then it makes sense. But if I had always always known that this chic I create would rebel against me, and if I had always known that I would then kill her, then she never had any free will at all.

I don't know why the free will concept is so difficult for Christians to grasp. Free will has to have an unknown element, where nobody knows what option will be taken. God's omniscience negates our free will.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by ATLian

I don't know why the free will concept is so difficult for Christians to grasp. Free will has to have an unknown element, where nobody knows what option will be taken. God's omniscience negates our free will.

If that is your definition of free will then no wonder we've debated this thing extensively without results.

Free will simply means that God (including his foreknowledge) doesn't influence your choice. What you're doing is equating foreknowledge with predestination when they're 2 entirely different concepts.

[grip_daddy]

ATLian,

Only Adam (since Eve came out of him), was a created human being. This Adam and Eve were created holy, dignified, undefiled, and without sin.

When they disobeyed, they became sinful in all respect. We came from them two so there is no way we are created sinful. To be more clear, when Adam and Eve sinned, all their cells, and body parts became sinful. Everything that came out of them as a result of procreation was sinful. So you are sinful, I am sinful, because we have this sinful body.

PS. There is a difference between a sinful person and a sinner. A sinner is someone who practices his sinfulness.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by ndigila

If that is your definition of free will then no wonder we've debated this thing extensively without results.

Free will simply means that God (including his foreknowledge) doesn't influence your choice. What you're doing is equating foreknowledge with predestination when they're 2 entirely different concepts.

That is not my definition of free will. I clearly stated that "Free will has to have an unknown element, where nobody knows what option will be taken. God's omniscience negates our free will." I was pointing out one of the elements needed for free will to exist, not defining what free will is.

I don't know why this is so hard to grasp: If an infallible being knows what you're going to do in the future, then you are essentially predestined to do that thing. You cannot do anything else! That means you have no free will!

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

ATLian,

Only Adam (since Eve came out of him), was a created human being. This Adam and Eve were created holy, dignified, undefiled, and without sin.

There must have been an element in them that was created with the capacity to sin, because they did sin. Which means that a perfect god created an imperfect thing, thus challenging his perfection!

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

To be more clear, when Adam and Eve sinned, all their cells, and body parts became sinful. Everything that came out of them as a result of procreation was sinful. So you are sinful, I am sinful, because we have this sinful body.

i.e. sin is genetic. Yet you still argue homosexuality (a sin) is not genetic.

[ndigila]

That is not my definition of free will. I clearly stated that "Free will has to have an unknown element, where nobody knows what option will be taken. God's omniscience negates our free will." I was pointing out one of the elements needed for free will to exist, not defining what free will is.

No it doesn't. Does God's foreknowledge influence a person's decision making? Does knowing=controlling? You are still falsely equating foreknowledge and predestination.

I don't know why this is so hard to grasp: If an infallible being knows what you're going to do in the future, then you are essentially predestined to do that thing. You cannot do anything else! That means you have no free will!

If he knows what you're going to do in the future, does that automatically mean that he's controlling your choice?

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by ATLian

There must have been an element in them that was created with the capacity to sin, because they did sin. Which means that a perfect god created an imperfect thing, thus challenging his perfection!

That element that was created in them is what we refer to as free will. Since you are confused between free will, God's all knowing vs foreknowledge capabilities, and predestination, I guess these terms should be thoroughly explained for distinction purposes.

i.e. sin is genetic. Yet you still argue homosexuality (a sin) is not genetic.

Murder is one of the ways sin manifest itself. Homosexuality, sleeping with animals, rape, and other abnormal behaviorial tendencies are different ways that sin manifest in different people.

Those who murder because they have strong genetic link to the activity, should they be understood? You will talk about free will and third party being or not being affected, which to me is very subjective. But remember a Christian has same rights to condem murder as he does have for condemning homosexuality. His choice to exercise any rights is another level altogether!