[ndigila]

Ok, Grip, so which Traditions of the church contradict scripture? And which ones are drawn from Mithra, or any other deity?

[grip_daddy]

Actually I dont know how to make this discussion have a kind of smooth flow, but may I inquire about the conduct of worship services that could have been followed by the apostles.

Do you think they were following the synagogue procession or the nearby religious influence? Especially when they were still preaching to the Jews in Jerusalem and nearby Jews towns?

There was a contrust between Jews worship system and the competiting/opposing religious systems including the Mythra. Which system would you think should have come from God before formal organisation of the mainstream orthodox church?

Meanwhile I am preparing what I may call an antethesis about the church, the gate of hell, and the promise of Christ to be posted in another thread.

[ndigila]

Hey, I carried over your response from the Ten Commandments Thread

But Grip, if this church fell into apostasy, why do then trust it's decision when it was canonizing the books of the New Testament?

This must be carefully studied. At the time of NT canonisation, there still were different groupings of believers with some still attached to the apostolic teachings whereas the majority were joining the pagan philosophies of the time. The Church's organisation before a full enactment of the Papacy, especially before the Pope acquired secular authority and infalability, the church still used the OT and Jesus teachings to arrive at truth.

Grip, the Christian canon was finalized by the third synod of Carthage in 397E. What you've presented so far as Pagan philosophies were already intact in the church at that time.

By the way, when I refer to tradition, I refer to the Tradition of the Orthodox Church, not the Catholic church


A method generally followed was as recorded in Acts 15 which compared accepted teachings with the Law (Torah). Apostasy did not occure in a split of time, but was very gradual with twists and turns, which would mean acceptance of pagan practices over time.

What we do learn from Acts 15 is the authority of the church council. The apostolic council of Jerusalem set a precedent for the 7 ecumenical councils later on.

One could also easily make the argument that Christian Rock music and Holy Hip Hop is mixing Christianity with the secularized culture.

There is a direct statement in the bible that asks people to do everything to the glory of God. Whenever a chosen instrument will give glory to the opposing force, that instrument must be forsaken.

So why is Christmas and Easter considered falling into paganism? Aren't the churches doing it for the glory of God?

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Actually I dont know how to make this discussion have a kind of smooth flow, but may I inquire about the conduct of worship services that could have been followed by the apostles.

Do you think they were following the synagogue procession or the nearby religious influence? Especially when they were still preaching to the Jews in Jerusalem and nearby Jews towns?

There was a contrust between Jews worship system and the competiting/opposing religious systems including the Mythra. Which system would you think should have come from God before formal organisation of the mainstream orthodox church?

Meanwhile I am preparing what I may call an antethesis about the church, the gate of hell, and the promise of Christ to be posted in another thread.

There isn't much difference between the Jewish synagogue worship and the Orthodox worship. I'm not sure if you've ever attended an Orthodox liturgy.

[grip_daddy]

Ndigila,

The Catholic church basically sprung up from the orthodox church; though as a universal organisation having a central and complete authority from Rome came into effect in 538AD. The church assumed mostly the philosophies of the pagan religions which were absent in scriptures and through councils, enacted these philosophies as part of the church's dogma. One dogma that has survived to date is the mass. How come the order and deliverance of Holy Communion as done by the Catholic church differs from the order exemplified by Christ and later on expounded by Paul? The current system of mass is very similar to that which was done by Mythra and not by the apostles.

I agree that the council of the church is important even today as was done by the apostles. There are two major contradictions in the spirit of the two councils notably:
1. The council of Acts was chaired by James who was not the head of the church assuming that the head was Peter. Here we find that the authority to formulate and conclude what constitute Church's doctrine did not rest on an individual as the current catholic church would make us believe.
2. The council was guided by interpretation of the scriptures on what the message to the Gentiles meant, and not by borrowing from the nearby religious philosophies. Remember also that the philosophies which were in honour to pagan deities were burned in presence of the apostles in some cities but the holy scriptures magnified. The Gentiles opted to compare the apostolic messages to the OT scriptures, an attitude that was manifest in the Act's council. The council did not even reason from traditions of the Jews (there was a remarkable visible Jews traditions as at that time) nor the traditions of the nearby Gentiles, but by the word of God as principled in OT.

When you say that the apostolic church followed the Judaisic system, how then did it begin to worship through Mary? A phenomena totally absent in the apostolic period?

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by ndigila

There isn't much difference between the Jewish synagogue worship and the Orthodox worship. I'm not sure if you've ever attended an Orthodox liturgy.

You'll give me examples of similarities, and/or the churches you assume the name orthodox to apply to.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

you'll give me examples of similarities, and/or the churches you assume the name orthodox to apply to.

by orthodox church, i mean the family of churches that make up the eastern and oriental orthodox churches.

The eastern orthodox churches are the greek orthodox, russian orthodox, serbian orthodox, romanian orthodox, bulgarian orthodox, arabian orthodox, and antiochian orthodox churches. this list may not be exhaustive

the oriental orthodox churches are the eritrean and ethiopian tewahedo orthodox, the coptic orthodox, the armenian apostolic church, the indian malankara orthodox church. again this list may not be exhaustive

so grip, we are in agreement that the catholic church sprung from the orthodox church, but we aren't dealing with the catholic church, we are dealing with the orthodox church. The challenge is to find where the orthodox church strayed from christian teachings. What you need to show is a historical evidence of a change and not simply a personal disagreement with a particular orthodox doctrine.

The similarities between jewish worship and orthodox worship is that they are both of liturgical nature and based off of the worship that happens in heaven which is liturgical.

[grip_daddy]

Ndigila,

In orthodox churches you have mentioned (I have done some little historical study of the Eastern orthodoxy), aren't there any traditions they practice and doctrines they believe in that would be termed strange by the apostles?

The icongraphy for example would be a totally new phenomena originated after the apostolic period, which would lead to idolatry.

Under what tradition or scriptural authority did Sabbath keeping become inconsequential seeing it was an important day for the apostles as documented in Acts?

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Ndigila,

In orthodox churches you have mentioned (I have done some little historical study of the Eastern orthodoxy), aren't there any traditions they practice and doctrines they believe in that would be termed strange by the apostles?

That is the challenge I'm proposing.

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

The icongraphy for example would be a totally new phenomena originated after the apostolic period, which would lead to idolatry.

Iconography isn't a new phenomena. St Luke the Physician (the author of the Gospel of Luke) is said to have written about 70 icons including the Theotokos of Passion.

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Under what tradition or scriptural authority did Sabbath keeping become inconsequential seeing it was an important day for the apostles as documented in Acts?

Grip, I've provided you with a quote from a disciple of John who claimed that Christians worshipped on Sunday. That is a very powerful eye-witness testimony.

[grip_daddy]

Grip, I've provided you with a quote from a disciple of John who claimed that Christians worshipped on Sunday. That is a very powerful eye-witness testimony.

My concern here was to know under what circumstances was the Sabbath dropped and why? Even if Sunday was kept as alleged, Sabbath was also kept. So how come Sabbath is no longer kept by the orthodox church yet the apostles kept it?