[Muhammad_4]

The word islam means surrender, submission and obedience. Surrender,submission and obidience to almighty god.the word islam is derived from the root "salamah" it means to be at peace or to have security.therefore a muslim is a person who surrender,submit and obey to almighty god and through this submission obtains peace and security for themselves.so by such definition the arabic word islam describe the same manner and behaviour of the well known and respected prophet and messenger of almighty god. All of them, adam, noah, abraham, moses,david, solomon,isaac,ismail,jacob, jesus and muhammad peace be upon all.came from the same almighty god with the same message,with the same chain of transmission and they said one thing: obey god alone. The 10 commandments what was that? the speech of abraham what was that? the psalms of david what was that? the proverb of solomon what did he say?the gospel of jesus what did he say? what did john the baptist say?what did isaac/ ismail say? what did muhammad (pbuh) say? nothing more than that!not anyone of them said that "i am god worship me" so where does that come from? look at how these people prayed then compare with muslims at prayer (same): "and he jesus went little further,and fell on his face ,and prayed (mathew 26:39) "and joshua fell his face on the earth, and did worship (joshua 5:14) "and he elijah cast himself down upon the earth,and put his face between his knees" (1 kings 18:42) and they (moses and aaron) fell upon their faces .....(numbers 20:6) "and abraham fell on his face......(genesis 17:3) also it is worthy to mention to you that when muslims meet each other, their greating is "assalaam alaikum" means peace be unto you same as jesus used to great his followers,read luke 24:36 and as they thus spake ,jesus himself stood in the midst of them,and saith unto them peace be unto you. Wouldnt you consider before its too late?

[grip_daddy]

Prayer positions,

1. Kneeling down - see how Solomon prayed during the Temple dedication. 1 Kings 8; 2 Chron 6; Daniel 6 among many other bible preferences where the servants of God prayed from a knee position without covering their faces on the ground.

2. Jesus in John 17 prayed by lifting his eyes high. Note, he didn't even close his eyes.

3. Lying in bed as in the case of Hezekiah the King.

4. The prayers to God were done on different positions in the temple, at homes, in the sanctuary, and in the wilderness.

Mohamm_4, why do you believe that Jesus prayed when bowing down because a writer of the bible said so? Why dont you believe the same writer when he wrote that Jesus died, was buried, and resurrected? Why do you selectively believe the bible?

[Muhammad_4]

Now you may say those passages I shared with you are false or vice versa. Indeed Jesus prophesied that people would worship him uselessly and would believe in doctrines made not by God but by man: Matthew 15:9: "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men". So,we use the Qur'an as the standard to correct man made changes in
previously revealed scriptures.Not as you made appear to accussing me for treating the Bible as a plate of food, you take what you want and leave want you dont want, no! that isnt the case here.
Back to the topic: We Muslims are the true followers of Jesus, peace be upon him, because we defend him from the exaggerations of the Christians and teach the Pure Monotheism that Jesus himself followed.
Muslims are taught to love Jesus, and a person cannot be a Muslim without believing in the virgin birth and miracles of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him.Muslims believe these things about Jesus not because of the Bible or any other religion, but simply because the Holy Qur.aan says these things about him. However, Muslims always emphasise that the miracles of Jesus, and all other prophets, were by "God's permission". This having been said, many Christians feel to not believe that Jesus is the "Son of God", "God Incarnate" or the "Third Person" of the Trinity. This is because the Qur.aan clearly says that Almighty God does not have a "Son" neither allegorically, physically, metaphorically or metaphysically.
Additionally, Christian doctrines such as the Trinity and the Atonement are criticised by Muslims precisely because they did not originate from Jesus,
peace be upon him. So we are defenders of Jesus teaching.

[grip_daddy]

Mohammad_4,

Our discussion would be fruitful when clear boundaries are set. Simply put, Muslims believe in Allah in accordance with the teachings of prophet Muhamed as expounded in your Holy Book. Christians on the other hand believe in the person of Jesus Christ (not all Christians) as the Son of God, the God Almighty, and the Only one God...Yaweh or Jehovah whose personality is not in singularity as physical objects and life forms common to us, but as a Triunion of Himself...The Creator of the heavens and the earth.

It is therefore important to question whether the foundation of your belief is the truth, of which you must be able to demonstrate, or is it the bible that teaches the truth?

In this respect it would be astonishing to provide evidences from the Christian bible when claiming some concepts of truth you would frontier following, yet this very bible is under attack by you for teaching some concepts you disagree with or refuse to believe in.

If for example a Budhist suggested that your Quran teaches that man should do what parts of that Quran claims, yet refuses to believe on the claims of Muhamed the prophet that he was a prophet from God, how would you react to his method of approach?

[GreyGoose]

i've always wondered why people waste their time with religion. we all know religion is the result of early humans not knowing how to explain why things happen the way they happen or why things are the way they are....for example christians believing the earth is not round....the catholic church lynched people who could prove the earth is round...luckily Pope John Paul had to admit the earth is round...unfortunately this was after 1000s of could-have-been-good-scientists were already six feet under.

what i'm trying to say here is that religion is basically based on assumptions whereby science is based on facts.

[Muhammad_4]

Praise be to Allaah.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to communicate and discuss the truth which we all need to know and follow, no matter what our previous differences of opinion and beliefs. It is only by means of this, I mean by knowing the truth and following it, that we can free ourselves of our sins, as it says in your Bible:“Then you will know the truth and the truth will set you free”John 8:31 (NIV)
So let us pause for a while and think about this truth, as it is stated in your Bible despite all the distortions and changes that have happened to it!The message that was brought by the Messiah (peace be upon him) was the call to worship God, the One, the Lord of the Messiah and the Lord of the worlds:
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” John 17:3
“A certain ruler asked him: ‘Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?’ Why do you call me good?’ Jesus answered. ‘No one is good – except God alone.’Luke 18:18-19
“The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.And he said to him, ‘I will give you all their authority and splendour, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.So if you worship me, it will all be yours.’Jesus answered, ‘It is written: “Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.”Luke 4:5-8
Believing in and worshipping Allaah alone, besides Whom there is no other god, is the greatest teaching brought by the Messiah, and it is the greatest teaching brought by all the Prophets.
“One of the teachers of the law came and noticed them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, ‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’The most important one,’ answered Jesus, ‘is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.(mark 12:28-34)
But do not think that this advice was given to Israel or to his own people only. Rather this is the basis of the teachings of all the Prophets. The same advice appears in the Gospel of Matthew, in similar wording, after which he says: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:39
This belief in the oneness of God is indeed the message of all of the Prophets. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad) but We revealed to him (saying): Laa ilaaha illa Ana (none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allaah)), so worship Me (Alone and none else)”(al-Anbiya’ 21:25)
This is the basic message to which the Messiah called people and warned them against differing from that.This is the basic principle on which we should all agree.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Say (O Muhammad): ‘O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allaah (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allaah.’ Then, if they turn away, say: ‘Bear witness that we are Muslims’(Aal ‘Imraan 3:64)
It is alien to true Christianity, this futile attempt to reconcile the belief in the Oneness of God, which is the message brought by the Prophets, and which is clearly stated in their Bible, and affirmed in the Torah in particular, with your belief in the trinity.

[grip_daddy]

we all know religion is the result of early humans not knowing how to explain why things happen the way they happen or why things are the way they are..


This is not only a self contradictory statement, fallacious, ignorant, and misplaced, but it also asserts that we all are in agreement that modern knowledge is complete. Please note that as long as there shall remain knowledge beyond probe, man shall remain religious.

what i'm trying to say here is that religion is basically based on assumptions whereby science is based on facts.

Science assumes that religion is based on assumptions since it cannot set an experiment to ratify it as a fact. Science as a discipline is the leading branch of knowledge that bases its reasoning on assumptions, set to verify those assumptions, empirically tabulate data got which are dependent on the initial assumptions, make inferences based on the data, then assumes that the inferred concept is a fact.

Science assumes that all that man can comprehend and intuinate by use of five senses, that all that can be inferred from material (matter based) instruments, and that all perceivable via scientific methods are all that is.

Science is ALSO based on assumptions

[Type R]

Arguing over religion(s) is meaningless. Faith = blind belief. You believe and move on. Period. That is true faith. Leave the dissection arguments for us rationalists and scientists.

[Type R]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Science assumes that religion is based on assumptions since it cannot set an experiment to ratify it as a fact.

The assumptions of religion are unobservable (spirit world). However, science does have its assumptions, eg parallel lines do not meet (you'd have to travel for all eternity following two line to make sure they never meet!!!).

What science does in these cases is provide a Proof of Concept. As in, IF assumption x, holds true, then system y derived from x should be functional. The problem with religion is that its proof is still in the other world, eg "righteousness leads to heaven" - can you show one person for whom this holds true? You'd have to go to heaven and return!!!

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Science as a discipline is the leading branch of knowledge that bases its reasoning on assumptions, set to verify those assumptions, empirically tabulate data got which are dependent on the initial assumptions, make inferences based on the data, then assumes that the inferred concept is a fact.

Science assumes that all that man can comprehend and intuinate by use of five senses, that all that can be inferred from material (matter based) instruments, and that all perceivable via scientific methods are all that is.

Science is ALSO based on assumptions

Yes, those fundamental assumptions are called axioms, ie basic starting points of logic. The soundness of basic assumptions should be demonstrable using logic and tests. Some of Einsteins theories were demonstrated after his death.

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by Type R

Arguing over religion(s) is meaningless. Faith = blind belief. You believe and move on. Period. That is true faith. Leave the dissection arguments for us rationalists and scientists.

Rationalists and scientists need to prove (empirically) the extent to which Faith can be a blind belief. Personally Faith is sure and true as Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow.