[ATLian]

Please note that as long as there shall remain knowledge beyond probe, man shall remain religious.

Grip,

I don't know if you realise this, but this statement reaffirms exactly what GreyGoose was trying to pass across i.e. religion is nothing but the bridge between what man knows and what he doesn't know.

[Muhammad_4]

There can be no doubt that the call to believe in Allaah alone (Monotheism) and to worship Him alone to the exclusion of anyone else, is the basic message that was brought by the Prophet of Allaah Jesus (peace be upon him), as it was the basic message brought by all the Prophets. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): ‘Worship Allaah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taghoot (all false deities, i.e. do not worship Taghoot besides Allaah)......(al-Nahl 16:36)
With regard to how the followers of Christian religion deviated after that from pure Monotheism to idolatrous beliefs and the worship of Jesus besides God, this is something which happened early on in Christian history. I will quote here some evidence to that effect from your own people’s words. Let whoever has ears listen.
It says in the American Encyclopedia: The belief in the Oneness of God – as a theological movement – began at a very early stage in history, and in fact it preceded the belief in trinity by many decades. Christianity developed from Judaism, and Judaism firmly believes that there is one God. The path that led from Jerusalem (the home of the first disciples of Christ) to Nicea (where it was decided in 325 CE that Christ was equal to God in essence and eternal nature) can hardly be described as a straight path.
The doctrine of trinity which was affirmed in the fourth century CE bears no resemblance to the original teachings of Christ concerning the nature of God. Au contraire, it is the opposite, a deviation from that teaching. Hence it developed in opposition to the belief in One God… (27/294).
You can refer to the views of some of those Christians who still believe in the Oneness of God in the same American Encyclopedia, 27/300-301
Will Durant says: When Christianity conquered Rome, the new religion (i.e., Christianity) was infused with the blood of the old idolatrous religion: the title of archbishop, worship for the great mother, and an innumerable number of lords who gave peace of mind and were like who exist in all places and cannot be detected with the senses. All of this came into Christianity as the blood of the mother comes into her child.
The civilized empire handed over power and administration to the papacy and the impact of the word replaced the impact of the sword. The preachers of the church started to assume positions of power.Christianity did not put an end to idolatry, rather it reinforced it. The Greek mind came back to life in a new form, in the doctrines and rituals of the church. The Greek rituals appeared in the rituals of the monastic saints. From Egypt came the idea of the holy trinity, the day of reckoning, eternal reward and punishment, and man’s eternal life in one of the other. From Egypt also came the worship of the mother and child, the mystical union with God, the union which led to Platonism and agnosticism, and the erasing of Christian doctrine. And from Persia came the belief in the return of the Messiah and his ruling the earth for 1000 years. 11/418 (The Story of Civilization)
Despite the element of atheism in the words of Durant, which is something that he is known for, and which is apparent in his claim that the idea of eternal reward or punishment came from the Egyptians, tracing the origins of deviant idolatry in Christianity is no longer a secret, and he is not the only one who has researched them. In his book Christianity and Idolatry, Robertson states that Mithraism, which is a religion of Persian origin, flourished in Persia approximately six centuries before the birth of Christ, and it reached Rome around the year 70 CE, where it spread throughout the Roman lands. Then it reached Britain and spread to a number of British cities. What concerns us here about this religion is that it says:
- That Mithras, after whom it is named, was an intermediary between God and man (for a similar doctrine in Christianity, see Acts 4:12).
- He was born in a cave or in a corner of the earth (cf. Luke 2:8)
- His birthday was December 25 (which is the day celebrated by the Christians as the day when Jesus was born)
- He had twelve disciples (cf. Matthew 10:1)
- He died to save the world (cf. I Corinthians 15:3)
- He was buried but he came back to life (cf. I Corinthians 15:4)
- He ascended to heaven in front of his disciples (cf. Acts 1:9)
- He was called “Saviour” (cf. Titus 2:13)
- Among his attributes is that he is like a peaceful lamb (cf. John 1:29)
- The “Divine supper” was held in his memory every year (cf. I Corinthians 11:23-25)
- One of his symbols was baptism
- Sunday was sacred to them
The French Orientalist Leon Joteh, in his book “An Introduction to Islamic philosophy” is of the view that the origin of the Christian trinity is to be found in Greek philosophy, specifically in the ideas of modern Platonism, which took the basis of the idea of trinity as a view of the Creator of the universe from Plato, then developed it to a great extent, so that the resemblance between this idea and Christianity became greater. So (in their view) the Creator, the One Who is absolutely perfect, appointed two intermediaries between him and mankind, who emanated from Him, and were also part of Him at the same time, meaning that they are contained in His essence. These two entities are reasoning and divine spirit. Then he said:
The marriage of Jewish belief and Greek philosophy did not only produce philosophy, rather it produced a religion too, namely Christianity which imbibed many ideas from the Greeks. The Christian concept of divinity is taken from the same source as modern Platonism. Hence you see many similarities between the two, although they may vary in some details. They are both based on a belief in trinity, in which the three “persons” are one.
This is what the American writer Draper refers to:
Idolatry and polytheism entered Christianity through the influence of the hypocrites who occupied positions of influence and high positions in the Roman state by pretending to be Christians, but they never cared about religion and were not sincere at all. Similarly Constantine had spent his life in darkness and evil, and he did not follow the commands of the church except for a short while at the end of his life. (p. 337)
Although the followers of Christianity gained some power, to the extent that they managed to have Constantine appointed as ruler, they failed to eradicate idolatry completely. As a result of their struggle, their principles became fused with idolatry, from which point there developed a new religion in which Christianity and idolatry were manifested equally.
Thus the Christians followed the same path of those disbelievers who had come before them, step by step.

[grip_daddy]

I don't know if you realise this, but this statement reaffirms exactly what GreyGoose was trying to pass across i.e. religion is nothing but the bridge between what man knows and what he doesn't know.

Actually I was just stating that it is ignorant to say that now man is knowledgeable. If religion is based on ignorance as he claims, then at no time should man wish away religion, meaning it is a false accusation to label the forefathers religious due to their ignorance in science.

Also I want to contrast it with todays billions of religious people as opposed to few thousands (or millions?) non religious individuals.

[Muhammad_4]

Grip Daddy.
I would like to see you back into the original discussion.

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

Grip Daddy.
I would like to see you back into the original discussion.

Thanks. Please (sorry for my ignorance of the Quran), does Quran contain the exact words of Genesis 1, Isaiah 53, and Prophecies of Daniel?

If yes, do you also think that such books were also changed by the early church?

PS. The book of Revelation, written in 95AD, prophecied the coming of Islam. For more details google the words Josiah Litch and see how he foretold the surrender of Turkey to Christian nations.

[toobig]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

The word islam means surrender, submission and obedience. Surrender,submission and obidience to almighty god.the word islam is derived from the root "salamah" it means to be at peace or to have security.therefore a muslim is a person who surrender,submit and obey to almighty god and through this submission obtains peace and security for themselves.so by such definition the arabic word islam describe the same manner and behaviour of the well known and respected prophet and messenger of almighty god. All of them, adam, noah, abraham, moses,david, solomon,isaac,ismail,jacob, jesus and muhammad peace be upon all.came from the same almighty god with the same message,with the same chain of transmission and they said one thing: obey god alone. The 10 commandments what was that? the speech of abraham what was that? the psalms of david what was that? the proverb of solomon what did he say?the gospel of jesus what did he say? what did john the baptist say?what did isaac/ ismail say? what did muhammad (pbuh) say? nothing more than that!not anyone of them said that "i am god worship me" so where does that come from? look at how these people prayed then compare with muslims at prayer (same): "and he jesus went little further,and fell on his face ,and prayed (mathew 26:39) "and joshua fell his face on the earth, and did worship (joshua 5:14) "and he elijah cast himself down upon the earth,and put his face between his knees" (1 kings 18:42) and they (moses and aaron) fell upon their faces .....(numbers 20:6) "and abraham fell on his face......(genesis 17:3) also it is worthy to mention to you that when muslims meet each other, their greating is "assalaam alaikum" means peace be unto you same as jesus used to great his followers,read luke 24:36 and as they thus spake ,jesus himself stood in the midst of them,and saith unto them peace be unto you. Wouldnt you consider before its too late?

its beatifull
the most adored fun in the world..
its beatifull,,,
really cute,,,
ohhh sex

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

It says in the American Encyclopedia: The belief in the Oneness of God – as a theological movement – began at a very early stage in history, and in fact it preceded the belief in trinity by many decades. Christianity developed from Judaism, and Judaism firmly believes that there is one God. The path that led from Jerusalem (the home of the first disciples of Christ) to Nicea (where it was decided in 325 CE that Christ was equal to God in essence and eternal nature) can hardly be described as a straight path.
The doctrine of trinity which was affirmed in the fourth century CE bears no resemblance to the original teachings of Christ concerning the nature of God. Au contraire, it is the opposite, a deviation from that teaching. Hence it developed in opposition to the belief in One God… (27/294).

Muhammad, the ante-nicene church fathers affirmed the Trinity, here's some examples:
Athenagoras 175 A.D. Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order, called atheists?

Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D. This visible appearance cheats death and the devil; for the wealth within, the beauty, is unseen by them. And they rave about the carcass, which they despise as weak, being blind to the wealth within; knowing not what a "treasure in an earthen vessel" 2 Corinthians 4:7 we bear, protected as it is by the power of God the Father, and the blood of God the Son, and the dew of the Holy Spirit.

Tertullian 212A.D. For the very Church itself is, properly and principally, the Spirit Himself, in whom is the Trinity of the One DivinityFather, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Hippolytus 205 A.D. Many other passages, or rather all of them, attest the truth. A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, Himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these, therefore, are three.

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

Despite the element of atheism in the words of Durant, which is something that he is known for, and which is apparent in his claim that the idea of eternal reward or punishment came from the Egyptians, tracing the origins of deviant idolatry in Christianity is no longer a secret, and he is not the only one who has researched them. In his book Christianity and Idolatry, Robertson states that Mithraism, which is a religion of Persian origin, flourished in Persia approximately six centuries before the birth of Christ, and it reached Rome around the year 70 CE, where it spread throughout the Roman lands. Then it reached Britain and spread to a number of British cities. What concerns us here about this religion is that it says:
- That Mithras, after whom it is named, was an intermediary between God and man (for a similar doctrine in Christianity, see Acts 4:12).
- He was born in a cave or in a corner of the earth (cf. Luke 2:8)
- His birthday was December 25 (which is the day celebrated by the Christians as the day when Jesus was born)
- He had twelve disciples (cf. Matthew 10:1)
- He died to save the world (cf. I Corinthians 15:3)
- He was buried but he came back to life (cf. I Corinthians 15:4)
- He ascended to heaven in front of his disciples (cf. Acts 1:9)
- He was called “Saviour” (cf. Titus 2:13)
- Among his attributes is that he is like a peaceful lamb (cf. John 1:29)
- The “Divine supper” was held in his memory every year (cf. I Corinthians 11:23-25)
- One of his symbols was baptism
- Sunday was sacred to them

When you separate the narratives from their ethics and significance, you could form any similarities. Apart from the 25th December celebration, all of the similarities you've mentioned above have been prophesied in the Old Testament and need not be borrowed from other religions.

By the way, you are yet to deal with the significance of the virgin birth in Islam, otherwise we could also claim it as Christian or Mithraic plagiarism.

[killy]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

There can be no doubt that the call to believe in Allaah alone (Monotheism) and to worship Him alone to the exclusion of anyone else, is the basic message that was brought by the Prophet of Allaah Jesus (peace be upon him), as it was the basic message brought by all the Prophets. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And verily, We have sent among every Ummah (community, nation) a Messenger (proclaiming): ‘Worship Allaah (Alone), and avoid (or keep away from) Taghoot (all false deities, i.e. do not worship Taghoot besides Allaah)......(al-Nahl 16:36)
With regard to how the followers of Christian religion deviated after that from pure Monotheism to idolatrous beliefs and the worship of Jesus besides God, this is something which happened early on in Christian history. I will quote here some evidence to that effect from your own people’s words. Let whoever has ears listen.
It says in the American Encyclopedia: The belief in the Oneness of God – as a theological movement – began at a very early stage in history, and in fact it preceded the belief in trinity by many decades. Christianity developed from Judaism, and Judaism firmly believes that there is one God. The path that led from Jerusalem (the home of the first disciples of Christ) to Nicea (where it was decided in 325 CE that Christ was equal to God in essence and eternal nature) can hardly be described as a straight path.
The doctrine of trinity which was affirmed in the fourth century CE bears no resemblance to the original teachings of Christ concerning the nature of God. Au contraire, it is the opposite, a deviation from that teaching. Hence it developed in opposition to the belief in One God… (27/294).
You can refer to the views of some of those Christians who still believe in the Oneness of God in the same American Encyclopedia, 27/300-301
Will Durant says: When Christianity conquered Rome, the new religion (i.e., Christianity) was infused with the blood of the old idolatrous religion: the title of archbishop, worship for the great mother, and an innumerable number of lords who gave peace of mind and were like who exist in all places and cannot be detected with the senses. All of this came into Christianity as the blood of the mother comes into her child.
The civilized empire handed over power and administration to the papacy and the impact of the word replaced the impact of the sword. The preachers of the church started to assume positions of power.Christianity did not put an end to idolatry, rather it reinforced it. The Greek mind came back to life in a new form, in the doctrines and rituals of the church. The Greek rituals appeared in the rituals of the monastic saints. From Egypt came the idea of the holy trinity, the day of reckoning, eternal reward and punishment, and man’s eternal life in one of the other. From Egypt also came the worship of the mother and child, the mystical union with God, the union which led to Platonism and agnosticism, and the erasing of Christian doctrine. And from Persia came the belief in the return of the Messiah and his ruling the earth for 1000 years. 11/418 (The Story of Civilization)
Despite the element of atheism in the words of Durant, which is something that he is known for, and which is apparent in his claim that the idea of eternal reward or punishment came from the Egyptians, tracing the origins of deviant idolatry in Christianity is no longer a secret, and he is not the only one who has researched them. In his book Christianity and Idolatry, Robertson states that Mithraism, which is a religion of Persian origin, flourished in Persia approximately six centuries before the birth of Christ, and it reached Rome around the year 70 CE, where it spread throughout the Roman lands. Then it reached Britain and spread to a number of British cities. What concerns us here about this religion is that it says:
- That Mithras, after whom it is named, was an intermediary between God and man (for a similar doctrine in Christianity, see Acts 4:12).
- He was born in a cave or in a corner of the earth (cf. Luke 2:8)
- His birthday was December 25 (which is the day celebrated by the Christians as the day when Jesus was born)
- He had twelve disciples (cf. Matthew 10:1)
- He died to save the world (cf. I Corinthians 15:3)
- He was buried but he came back to life (cf. I Corinthians 15:4)
- He ascended to heaven in front of his disciples (cf. Acts 1:9)
- He was called “Saviour” (cf. Titus 2:13)
- Among his attributes is that he is like a peaceful lamb (cf. John 1:29)
- The “Divine supper” was held in his memory every year (cf. I Corinthians 11:23-25)
- One of his symbols was baptism
- Sunday was sacred to them
The French Orientalist Leon Joteh, in his book “An Introduction to Islamic philosophy” is of the view that the origin of the Christian trinity is to be found in Greek philosophy, specifically in the ideas of modern Platonism, which took the basis of the idea of trinity as a view of the Creator of the universe from Plato, then developed it to a great extent, so that the resemblance between this idea and Christianity became greater. So (in their view) the Creator, the One Who is absolutely perfect, appointed two intermediaries between him and mankind, who emanated from Him, and were also part of Him at the same time, meaning that they are contained in His essence. These two entities are reasoning and divine spirit. Then he said:
The marriage of Jewish belief and Greek philosophy did not only produce philosophy, rather it produced a religion too, namely Christianity which imbibed many ideas from the Greeks. The Christian concept of divinity is taken from the same source as modern Platonism. Hence you see many similarities between the two, although they may vary in some details. They are both based on a belief in trinity, in which the three “persons” are one.
This is what the American writer Draper refers to:
Idolatry and polytheism entered Christianity through the influence of the hypocrites who occupied positions of influence and high positions in the Roman state by pretending to be Christians, but they never cared about religion and were not sincere at all. Similarly Constantine had spent his life in darkness and evil, and he did not follow the commands of the church except for a short while at the end of his life. (p. 337)
Although the followers of Christianity gained some power, to the extent that they managed to have Constantine appointed as ruler, they failed to eradicate idolatry completely. As a result of their struggle, their principles became fused with idolatry, from which point there developed a new religion in which Christianity and idolatry were manifested equally.
Thus the Christians followed the same path of those disbelievers who had come before them, step by step.

[I]"my heart shall only rest in you"[/i] ie In Almighty God...knowing Him gives one peace and is devoid of bashing christians only...there appear to be a systematic attempt to erode the christian faith, but u know what? You will not Succeed!

[Genuwine]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Thanks. Please (sorry for my ignorance of the Quran), does Quran contain the exact words of Genesis 1, Isaiah 53, and Prophecies of Daniel?

If yes, do you also think that such books were also changed by the early church?

PS. The book of Revelation, written in 95AD, prophecied the coming of Islam. For more details google the words Josiah Litch and see how he foretold the surrender of Turkey to Christian nations.

I agree with you grip

[Muhammad_4]

I am going to pose questions which has been asked by Muslims for years (not new): To ndigila,if God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn’t a complete God, nor was the "Father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?
To Grip Daddy: who wrote the book of Revelation?
Why is half of the New Testament written by a man who never even met Jesus in his lifetime? PAUL claimed with no proof that he had met Jesus while on his way from Jerusalem to Damascus. PAUL was the main enemy of Christianity. Isn’t that reason enough to question the authenticity of what he wrote?