[ndigila]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

History has shown that the bible has been changed. The revised standard version (1952 and 1971), the new american standard bible and the new world translation have expunged certain verses that are found in the king james version.

What we're looking for is a significant change that would warrant a need of a prophet to correct it. What you've presented is different versions of the English bible.

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

The birth of jesus in quran: quran 3:45-51 45. (remember) when the angels said: "o maryam (mary)! verily, allah gives you the glad tidings of a word ["be!" - and he was! i.e. 'iesa (jesus) the son of maryam (mary)] from him, his name will be the messiah 'iesa (jesus), the son of maryam (mary), held in honour in this world and in the hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to allah" 46. "he will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous."47. She said: "o my lord! how shall i have a son when no man has touched me." he said: "so (it will be) for allah creates what he wills. When he has decreed something, he says to it only: "be!" and it is. 48. And he (allah will teach him ['iesa (jesus)] the book and al-hikmah (i.e. The sunnah, the faultless speech of the prophets, wisdom, etc.), (and) the taurat(torah) and the injeel (gospel). 49. And will make him ['iesa (jesus)] a messenger to the children of israel (saying): "i have come to you with a sign from your lord, that i design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by allahs leave; and i heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and i bring the dead to life by allahs leave. And i inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe.50. And i have come confirming that which was before me of the taurat(torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and i have come to you with a proof from your lord. So fear allah and obey me. 51. Truly! allah is my lord and your lord, so worship him (alone). This is the straight path". *in fact there is a whole surah (chapter) in the quran which is called mariam (mary) mother of jesus.

What is the significance of the Virgin birth in Islam? Why did Jesus have to be born of a Virgin (and without a father) if he was merely destined to be a prophet?

[Muhammad_4]

John 5:7-8: "for there are three that bear record in heaven: the father, the word, and the holy ghost, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one." that is in the king james version, authorized in 1611 but now this part, "the father, the word, and the holy ghost: and these three are one," has been expunged in the revised standard version of 1952 and 1971 and in many other bibles. Read hebrews 7:3. "without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the son of god; abideth a priest continually." who is he? the answer is in hebrews 7: 1: "melchisedec, king of salem, priest of the most high god, who met abraham ..." he is more unique than jesus or adam. Why is he not considered a son of god or god himself?!

[grip_daddy]

Mohammad_4,

In Christian theology we have the terms type and antitype. Type means that which stands for the true, or which represent the real, or which foretells the actual. When the true, or the real, or the actual appears, that real, or actual, or true becomes the antitype in the sense of replacement, or substituting, or in place of the type. The Greek word translated anti before Christ to make Antichrist had the said meanings which literally mean a substitute for Christ, true Christ, actual Christ etc. In this sense, you can figure out an blasphemous intent (the beast of Revelation 13 had blasphemy written on his head, same to the woman in chapter 17 which both constitute the antichrist).

In foretelling the coming of Christ, many OT systems were a representation of the true heavenly system (see Hebrews 7-10) which in theology are called types. Some of these systems included the ceremonial sacrifices, the ceremonial days e.g. the day of passover, the new moon festivities, the sabbaths, etc. The the ceremonies (types) that were foretelling the coming of Christ met their fulfilment on the Cross at Christ's death which made them to cease (see Ephesians, Galatians and Colossians) thereby implying that the death of Jesus was the antitype.

Deeper study of the OT reveals also that not only were the sacrifices offered were the types, but also some names. Three examples of the names should suffice:

1. Joshua - This is the same root name that we get Yeshua commonly translated to Jesus. The meaning of this name is literally Savior. As you know the history of Israel, Joshua led the children of Israel from wilderness into the promised land and settled them there. This was a foreshadow of how Jesus will lead the true Israelites (Israelites by faith) from this earth (wilderness) into a place He has promised He will prepare for us. This fact though, does not mean that the OT Joshua is the true Christ.

2. Emmanuel - To mean God with us. This was a son prophesied in Isaiah 8 which was to be an assurance that even if Assyria will attack, a son shall be born in that time and his name shall be God with us. Jesus is also given that name to signify that He is the true God with us as was given in that Isaiah's prophecy.

3. Melchisedec - This man was a high priest even before the priesthood of Aron was established. He was also a king before the kingdom of Israel came into existence. He represented the coming work of Messiah both as our heavenly high priest (expounded in Hebrews 8-10) and His promised everlasting kingdom. So the same way the name Joshua applied to Jesus' work of salvation, the same way Emmanuel applied to Jesus' being the God with us, so did the name Melchisedec represent the priesthood and eternity of Jesus. This was so important especially to Abraham who was to become the father of all believers (the father of faith), and as other believers, he foresaw and understood the coming priesthood and kingdom of Christ as was prophesied in the work, priesthood and kingship of Melchisedec, who, as others, was not the true Christ.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

John 5:7-8: "for there are three that bear record in heaven: the father, the word, and the holy ghost, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one." that is in the king james version, authorized in 1611 but now this part, "the father, the word, and the holy ghost: and these three are one," has been expunged in the revised standard version of 1952 and 1971 and in many other bibles. Read hebrews 7:3. "without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the son of god; abideth a priest continually." who is he? the answer is in hebrews 7: 1: "melchisedec, king of salem, priest of the most high god, who met abraham ..." he is more unique than jesus or adam. Why is he not considered a son of god or god himself?!

You're not answering the questions. What is the significance of Jesus Virgin birth in Islam if he was merely destined to be a prophet? And what changes were made in the Christian New Testament that warranted a need of a prophet to correct it?

With regards to your question about Melchisedec, you need to read the rest of Hebrews 7. He's not more unique than Jesus.

[Muhammad_4]

The miracle of adam’s creation is greater. For jesus (peace be upon him) was created without a father, but adam was created without a father or a mother, and this is more expressive of the power of allaah to create; it is more miraculous than the creation of jesus (peace be upon him). For all these reasons and others, it was essential to explain the issue of jesus (peace be upon him) and put matters straight. (another prophet has to come) i may be repeating myself here if i point out that the gospels, or the bible, of which we are speaking, that is extant among the people nowadays, is something other than that which was revealed from allaah to his slave and messenger ‘eesa ibn maryam (jesus son of mary – peace be upon him). For reasons of divine wisdom, that book continued to be distorted and misinterpreted from ancient times until its divine origin was lost and disappeared.now, after so many centuries of tampering, it is impossible for anyone to be certain whether any part of the bible is true or false, unless it is checked in the light of the truth that confirms that which went before, the divine light of which has not been extinguished by the darkness of ignorance and whims and desires, and whose pure truthfulness has not been contaminated with even a single lie or mistake. That can be nothing other than the holy qur’aan which allaah has guaranteed to preserve. The encyclopaedia britannica refers to the different opinions among christian scholars and researchers concerning the matter of divine inspiration and whether every phrase of the bible is divinely inspired or not. Then it comments on that in one article (19/20) where it says: “those who say that every phrase is divinely inspired cannot prove their claims with any ease.” allaah, the most high, said, “verily, we did send down the taurat (torah) [to moosaa (moses)], therein was guidance and light, by which the prophets, who submitted themselves to allah's will, judged the jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the jews by the taurat (torah) after those prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto. ...(al maidah 44-45) and the most high said, “let the people of the injeel (gospel) judge by what allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the faasiqoon (the rebellious i.e. Disobedient to allah.” [al-maa’idah:47].so the jews and christians disbelieved in the torah and the gospel, so they do not act according to what these two books contain of beliefs and laws.obviosly another prophet has to come (by allah wisdom).he came with the matter of respecting the prophets and their books. Rather, he came with the matter of loving them, believing in them, and believing in their books. Allaah, the most high said: “the messenger (muhammad) has believed in what was revealed to him from his lord, and so do the believers. All of them believe in allaah, and his angels, and his books (scriptures), and his messengers. We do not separate between anyone from his messengers.” [al-baqarah:285]and allaah, the most high said, commanding muhammad (sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) and his nation of followers: “say: we believe in allaah, and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to ibraaheem, and ismaa’eel, and ishaaq, and ya’qoob, and the tribes, and what was given to moosaa, and jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their lord. We do not separate between anyone from them, and we submit to him (allaah) as muslims.” [al-baqarah:136] and allaah, the most high, said, “say (o muhammad): we believe in allaah, and what was revealed to us, and what was revealed to ibraaheem (abraham), and ismaa’eel (ishmail), and ishaaq (isac), and ya’qoob (jacob), and the tribes, and what was given to moosaa (moses), and ‘eesaa (jesus), and the prophets from their lord. We do not separate between anyone from them, and we submit to him (allaah) as muslims.” [aal ‘imraan:84] i hope that i have answered those questions.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

The miracle of adam’s creation is greater. For jesus (peace be upon him) was created without a father, but adam was created without a father or a mother, and this is more expressive of the power of allaah to create; it is more miraculous than the creation of jesus (peace be upon him).

We're dealing with the significance, not the extent to which the miracle is great. Adam's miracle had significance in the sense that he was the first man to be created. Jesus' miracle (in Islam) had no significance whatsoever. An event of such magnitude has to have significance if it is to be believed.

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

For all these reasons and others, it was essential to explain the issue of jesus (peace be upon him) and put matters straight. (another prophet has to come) i may be repeating myself here if i point out that the gospels, or the bible, of which we are speaking, that is extant among the people nowadays, is something other than that which was revealed from allaah to his slave and messenger ‘eesa ibn maryam (jesus son of mary – peace be upon him). For reasons of divine wisdom, that book continued to be distorted and misinterpreted from ancient times until its divine origin was lost and disappeared.now, after so many centuries of tampering, it is impossible for anyone to be certain whether any part of the bible is true or false, unless it is checked in the light of the truth that confirms that which went before, the divine light of which has not been extinguished by the darkness of ignorance and whims and desires, and whose pure truthfulness has not been contaminated with even a single lie or mistake. That can be nothing other than the holy qur’aan which allaah has guaranteed to preserve. The encyclopaedia britannica refers to the different opinions among christian scholars and researchers concerning the matter of divine inspiration and whether every phrase of the bible is divinely inspired or not. Then it comments on that in one article (19/20) where it says: “those who say that every phrase is divinely inspired cannot prove their claims with any ease.” allaah, the most high, said, “verily, we did send down the taurat (torah) [to moosaa (moses)], therein was guidance and light, by which the prophets, who submitted themselves to allah's will, judged the jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the jews by the taurat (torah) after those prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto. ...(al maidah 44-45) and the most high said, “let the people of the injeel (gospel) judge by what allah has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what allah has revealed (then) such (people) are the faasiqoon (the rebellious i.e. Disobedient to allah.” [al-maa’idah:47].so the jews and christians disbelieved in the torah and the gospel, so they do not act according to what these two books contain of beliefs and laws.obviosly another prophet has to come (by allah wisdom).he came with the matter of respecting the prophets and their books. Rather, he came with the matter of loving them, believing in them, and believing in their books. Allaah, the most high said: “the messenger (muhammad) has believed in what was revealed to him from his lord, and so do the believers. All of them believe in allaah, and his angels, and his books (scriptures), and his messengers. We do not separate between anyone from his messengers.” [al-baqarah:285]and allaah, the most high said, commanding muhammad (sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) and his nation of followers: “say: we believe in allaah, and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to ibraaheem, and ismaa’eel, and ishaaq, and ya’qoob, and the tribes, and what was given to moosaa, and jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their lord. We do not separate between anyone from them, and we submit to him (allaah) as muslims.” [al-baqarah:136] and allaah, the most high, said, “say (o muhammad): we believe in allaah, and what was revealed to us, and what was revealed to ibraaheem (abraham), and ismaa’eel (ishmail), and ishaaq (isac), and ya’qoob (jacob), and the tribes, and what was given to moosaa (moses), and ‘eesaa (jesus), and the prophets from their lord. We do not separate between anyone from them, and we submit to him (allaah) as muslims.” [aal ‘imraan:84] i hope that i have answered those questions.

This is why Christians and Muslims really can't have a meaningful discussion. You first use Bible verses to prove the case for Islam and then turn around and say that the Bible has been edited so much that we can't know for sure which is true and which is false. I guess now the only option forward is to provide a list of Bible verses in the Christian Bible that are still in its original form.

[Muhammad_4]

If I come across Biblical verses which says that: Almighty God is One, Jesus is a Prophet of God sent to the children of Israel,that he was born miraculous,that every soul is responsible for his own sin, then I accept.But when you are telling me that God is like charlote, he is like an apple, like an egg, that Jesus has to die for you sin, there is when problems start.
However, if I were to convince you or anyone else of the authenticity of the Qur’an, I must prove 1) that it was impossible for Muhammad to manufacture such a book 2) I must prove that it was equally impossible for any human agency to have created it.
Let us think about this. The Qur’an makes the statement: And we created the human beings from a hanging clot that was clinging to the wall of the womb". How did the prophet Muhammad know that the embryo started out as a clot hanging and clinging to the wall of the uterus of the mother? Did he have a telescope? Did he have a microscope? Did he have some kind of X-ray vision? How did he receive this knowledge when this was discovered 60 years ago? How did he know that the ocean have a barrier between them to separate the salt and the fresh water? How did he know that? How did he know that the sun and the moon and the planets are all swimming in an orbit that has been ordered for them? How did he know them when these things just been discovered 35 or 50 years ago? Technology and science, the sophistication of which you and I well know, have just discovered these things. How did Muhammad know them fifteen hundred years ago? An uneducated shepherd who could not read or write, a man raised in the desert, how could he say something like this? How could he produce something like this? How could anyone else living with him before and after, produce something that has been discovered recently? Impossible. How could a man who never left the Arabian Peninsula, a man who never sailed on a ship make such clear and astounding descriptions that were recently discovered in the half of the 20th century? Also if this is not enough, let me mention to you that the Qur’an has 114 chapters, over 6000 verses and there were hundreds of people in the time of the prophet Muhammad who memorized this book entirely. Was he come kind of genius? How did that happen? Did anyone memorize any of the gospels? Did anyone memorize the Torah? The Psalms? The Old and the New Testament? Nobody, not even the pope himself. But there are millions of Muslims today, who has memorized the entire book. This is the ambition of almost every Muslims. How many Christians have you meet in your life that has memorized the Bible? You have never meet any Christians that memorized the Bible because you have never meet a Christian who even knew what word the whole Bible. Because the Christians themselves have over 700 different denominations and there are around 39 different versions of the Bible with different books and different versions, with different amount of verses and different amount of chapters and they don’t agree to that. So how could you even memorize what you don’t agree about?
Finally, Qur’an, has been universally preserved without the slightest alternation of any kind in fifteen centuries.
If all of these are true, and if it is all true, would you agree that the book is quite profound and unique to say the least? Would you be honest enough to say that? Of course you would if you are honest.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

If I come across Biblical verses which says that: Almighty God is One, Jesus is a Prophet of God sent to the children of Israel,that he was born miraculous,that every soul is responsible for his own sin, then I accept.But when you are telling me that God is like charlote, he is like an apple, like an egg, that Jesus has to die for you sin, there is when problems start.

Muhammad, to convince a Christian to convert to Islam, you first have to show where Christianity erred before convincing him of the relevance of the Qu'ran. You claim that Christians strayed from the original teachings of Jesus, you need to be able to point differences between, say, the first century Christians and the fifth century Christians, and why these differences were significant enough to warrant their correction by a prophet and not by a reformation.

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

However, if I were to convince you or anyone else of the authenticity of the Qur’an, I must prove 1) that it was impossible for Muhammad to manufacture such a book 2) I must prove that it was equally impossible for any human agency to have created it.
Let us think about this. The Qur’an makes the statement: And we created the human beings from a hanging clot that was clinging to the wall of the womb". How did the prophet Muhammad know that the embryo started out as a clot hanging and clinging to the wall of the uterus of the mother? Did he have a telescope? Did he have a microscope? Did he have some kind of X-ray vision? How did he receive this knowledge when this was discovered 60 years ago? How did he know that the ocean have a barrier between them to separate the salt and the fresh water? How did he know that? How did he know that the sun and the moon and the planets are all swimming in an orbit that has been ordered for them? How did he know them when these things just been discovered 35 or 50 years ago? Technology and science, the sophistication of which you and I well know, have just discovered these things. How did Muhammad know them fifteen hundred years ago? An uneducated shepherd who could not read or write, a man raised in the desert, how could he say something like this? How could he produce something like this? How could anyone else living with him before and after, produce something that has been discovered recently? Impossible. How could a man who never left the Arabian Peninsula, a man who never sailed on a ship make such clear and astounding descriptions that were recently discovered in the half of the 20th century?

Muhammad, i'm not very familiar with the Qur'an, but scientific statements in most religious texts are so vague that they could be made to fit anything. People are able to find the hydrological cycle, the solar system, ice ages, and even dinosaurs in the Old Testament (somehow).

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

Also if this is not enough, let me mention to you that the Qur’an has 114 chapters, over 6000 verses and there were hundreds of people in the time of the prophet Muhammad who memorized this book entirely. Was he come kind of genius? How did that happen? Did anyone memorize any of the gospels? Did anyone memorize the Torah? The Psalms? The Old and the New Testament? Nobody, not even the pope himself. But there are millions of Muslims today, who has memorized the entire book. This is the ambition of almost every Muslims. How many Christians have you meet in your life that has memorized the Bible? You have never meet any Christians that memorized the Bible because you have never meet a Christian who even knew what word the whole Bible.

Note that statement above in red, the ambition of Muslims is to memorize the Qur'an. Christians don't memorize the Bible because that is not their ambition.

[Muhammad_4]

I am not here to convert no one! all I do, is to present my case on why should Christians revert to Islam, then the choice is their`s (yours).I put the matter before you – and you sentence yourself. You take the sentence that you want. You sentence yourself to peace and paradise or you sentence yourself to confusion, frustration and hellfire and punishment.
You want to know how Christians deviated from Jesus`s teachings, but before that why dont you tell me where the Gospel of Barnabas is?

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

I am not here to convert no one! all I do, is to present my case on why should Christians revert to Islam, then the choice is their`s (yours).I put the matter before you – and you sentence yourself. You take the sentence that you want. You sentence yourself to peace and paradise or you sentence yourself to confusion, frustration and hellfire and punishment.

Muhammad, when presenting your case, you stated that Christians deviated from Christ's teaching. It is imperative to your case to show where this deviation occurred and why it warranted a prophet to correct it.

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

You want to know how Christians deviated from Jesus`s teachings, but before that why dont you tell me where the Gospel of Barnabas is?

What about the Gospel of Barnabas? Does it feature in Islam?