[Type R]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Rationalists and scientists need to prove (empirically) the extent to which Faith can be a blind belief.

Proof not necessary, since the dictionary definition of the word 'faith' is equivalent to 'blind belief.'

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

also it is worthy to mention to you that when muslims meet each other, their greating is "assalaam alaikum" means peace be unto you same as jesus used to great his followers,read luke 24:36 and as they thus spake ,jesus himself stood in the midst of them,and saith unto them peace be unto you. Wouldnt you consider before its too late?

Muhammad, it is also worth noting to you that Luke 24:36 happens after Jesus' resurrection, an event which Islam denies. It's interesting that you'd still use it to make a case for Islam.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

The word islam means surrender, submission and obedience. Surrender,submission and obidience to almighty god.the word islam is derived from the root "salamah" it means to be at peace or to have security.therefore a muslim is a person who surrender,submit and obey to almighty god and through this submission obtains peace and security for themselves.so by such definition the arabic word islam describe the same manner and behaviour of the well known and respected prophet and messenger of almighty god. All of them, adam, noah, abraham, moses,david, solomon,isaac,ismail,jacob, jesus and muhammad peace be upon all.came from the same almighty god with the same message,with the same chain of transmission and they said one thing: obey god alone. The 10 commandments what was that? the speech of abraham what was that? the psalms of david what was that? the proverb of solomon what did he say?the gospel of jesus what did he say? what did john the baptist say?what did isaac/ ismail say? what did muhammad (pbuh) say? nothing more than that!not anyone of them said that "i am god worship me" so where does that come from? look at how these people prayed then compare with muslims at prayer (same): "and he jesus went little further,and fell on his face ,and prayed (mathew 26:39) "and joshua fell his face on the earth, and did worship (joshua 5:14) "and he elijah cast himself down upon the earth,and put his face between his knees" (1 kings 18:42) and they (moses and aaron) fell upon their faces .....(numbers 20:6) "and abraham fell on his face......(genesis 17:3) also it is worthy to mention to you that when muslims meet each other, their greating is "assalaam alaikum" means peace be unto you same as jesus used to great his followers,read luke 24:36 and as they thus spake ,jesus himself stood in the midst of them,and saith unto them peace be unto you. Wouldnt you consider before its too late?

Muhammad, you should also realise that prostration is done by Eastern Christian churches (The Orthodox family churches, the Armenian Apostolic Church etc), and these churches pre-date Islam.

[ndigila]

I'd like to jump into this discussion, but before I do, Muhammad 4, what parts of the Gospel does Islam accept and which parts does it reject?

[Muhammad_4]

Ndigila wrote "Muhammad, it is also worth noting to you that Luke 24:36 happens after Jesus' resurrection, an event which Islam denies. It's interesting that you'd still use it to make a case for Islam".I say :No, Luke 24:36 is against you! because disciples heard that he was Crucified and they were terrified seeing him again, then Jesus convinced them that he was the same person by letting them touch his hands and feet. As they could not believe him yet, he asked for meat to show them that he still ate like any living individual.What was he proving? that ressurected body has flesh and bones? that he was a ghost?
As for your next question, the answer is: We believe that Injil,Torah (Gospel) are words of God (but in their original form).If you can give me original manuscript then it will be another case.

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

What was he proving? that ressurected body has flesh and bones?.

Are you suggesting that He was proving that He did not resurrect in case He was not a Ghost?

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

No, Luke 24:36 is against you! because disciples heard that he was Crucified and they were terrified seeing him again, then Jesus convinced them that he was the same person by letting them touch his hands and feet. As they could not believe him yet, he asked for meat to show them that he still ate like any living individual.What was he proving? that ressurected body has flesh and bones? that he was a ghost?

Context is key, Muhammad. Jesus let the disciples touch his hands and feet because that is where the nails went through his body as he was hanging on the cross.

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

As for your next question, the answer is: We believe that Injil,Torah (Gospel) are words of God (but in their original form).If you can give me original manuscript then it will be another case.

The burden of proof is on you. It's you who has to prove that the Gospel that's in the Christian New Testament has been severely changed.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by Muhammad_4

Muslims are taught to love Jesus, and a person cannot be a Muslim without believing in the virgin birth and miracles of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him.

Yaani in all my years of talking with Muslims, I've never known that Islam acknowledges the virgin birth. Muhammad, how is Jesus a normal human being yet his mother is a virgin? How many normal human beings are begotten of virgins?

The Virgin birth and conception of the Holy Spirit go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other. It is this event that unites humanity and divinity in the personhood of Jesus Christ. That's why we can say he's both God and Man.

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by ndigila

The Virgin birth and conception of the Holy Spirit go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other. It is this event that unites humanity and divinity in the personhood of Jesus Christ. That's why we can say he's both God and Man.

Given that Mary got pregnant without being fertilized by a spermotozoa (and I believe her eggs never played any part either), it means that the being which grew in her womb was pre-existent. That Being, through the power of the Holy Spirit, transformed Himself into a tiny body of a fertilized egg, and implanted Himself a human being's womb, and then grew to maturity and was given birth to.

If you consider that it underwent a total transformation from being Spirit in personality, to a total body of a physical material form (manhood, or humanity if you like), then that being is in all respect that which He was before transformation, meaning that He is as He claims...I AM (God in Eternity). He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM".

But would like to see Mohammad's response to this.

[Muhammad_4]

History has shown that the bible has been changed. The revised standard version (1952 and 1971), the new american standard bible and the new world translation have expunged certain verses that are found in the king james version. The reader's digest has reduced the old testament by 50 percent and the new testament by about 25 percent. The birth of jesus in quran: quran 3:45-51 45. (remember) when the angels said: "o maryam (mary)! verily, allah gives you the glad tidings of a word ["be!" - and he was! i.e. 'iesa (jesus) the son of maryam (mary)] from him, his name will be the messiah 'iesa (jesus), the son of maryam (mary), held in honour in this world and in the hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to allah" 46. "he will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous."47. She said: "o my lord! how shall i have a son when no man has touched me." he said: "so (it will be) for allah creates what he wills. When he has decreed something, he says to it only: "be!" and it is. 48. And he (allah will teach him ['iesa (jesus)] the book and al-hikmah (i.e. The sunnah, the faultless speech of the prophets, wisdom, etc.), (and) the taurat(torah) and the injeel (gospel). 49. And will make him ['iesa (jesus)] a messenger to the children of israel (saying): "i have come to you with a sign from your lord, that i design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by allahs leave; and i heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and i bring the dead to life by allahs leave. And i inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe.50. And i have come confirming that which was before me of the taurat(torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and i have come to you with a proof from your lord. So fear allah and obey me. 51. Truly! allah is my lord and your lord, so worship him (alone). This is the straight path". *in fact there is a whole surah (chapter) in the quran which is called mariam (mary) mother of jesus.