[infinitepyro]

While we're discussin the ten commandments with such scrutiny, could some1 please explain to me why the catholic church doesnt teach 10 commandments but rather 9 instead? Thank you.

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by infinitepyro

While we're discussin the ten commandments with such scrutiny, could some1 please explain to me why the catholic church doesnt teach 10 commandments but rather 9 instead? Thank you.

When talking about the Ten Commandments, please note that the Jews, Protestants, and Catholics differ in the numberings. The Jews' method for numbering though different reconcile with Protestant's commandments i.e. all the ten are present in both.

The Catholics changed the Sabbath wordings sometimes in early 600AD where the requirement to work six days was removed, while remember the Sabbath was replaced with Observe the Lord's Sabbath or day.

The commandment prohibiting idol making was considered a repeat of the first commandment therefore dropped from the code. This then gave way to the erection and use of images such as the cross, Jesus, the saints and the Sun symbol around heads as was copied from pagan idolatery of the dead heroes and the Sun.

So to ensure continuation of the non biblical practices, several councils were called which ratified a clause to glorify the tradition alongside scriptures. The Council of Trend specifically included other important clauses that would magnify some of pagan believes to an extent of condemning through death the heretics, which clause still in force up to date.

Basically, the catholic do not give honour to scriptures first. Actually lay catholics were allowed to access scriptures very recently (I think early 90s) but were supposed to follow without asking any questions the traditions of the church.

[infinitepyro]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

When talking about the Ten Commandments, please note that the Jews, Protestants, and Catholics differ in the numberings. The Jews' method for numbering though different reconcile with Protestant's commandments i.e. all the ten are present in both.

The Catholics changed the Sabbath wordings sometimes in early 600AD where the requirement to work six days was removed, while remember the Sabbath was replaced with Observe the Lord's Sabbath or day.

The commandment prohibiting idol making was considered a repeat of the first commandment therefore dropped from the code. This then gave way to the erection and use of images such as the cross, Jesus, the saints and the Sun symbol around heads as was copied from pagan idolatery of the dead heroes and the Sun.

So to ensure continuation of the non biblical practices, several councils were called which ratified a clause to glorify the tradition alongside scriptures. The Council of Trend specifically included other important clauses that would magnify some of pagan believes to an extent of condemning through death the heretics, which clause still in force up to date.

Basically, the catholic do not give honour to scriptures first. Actually lay catholics were allowed to access scriptures very recently (I think early 90s) but were supposed to follow without asking any questions the traditions of the church.

So the catholics dropped the so called 'Seal of the Lord' n yet in Hebrew it is quite clear that the two commandments are extremely different one emphasisin the YHWH first notion n the second prohibitin idol craftmanship n worship?!

Why would they think to change laws given by YHWH? Doesnt that sound quiet apocalyptical?

[grip_daddy]

So the catholics dropped the so called 'Seal of the Lord'

Ndigila,
Please read the below reasoning and give your opinion or challenge:

The seal of God is given by the Holy Spirit which is carried out by an act of angels (see Ezekiel 9 and Revelation 7). The angels specifically places the seal in the forehead of the disciples or 144,000 Israelites. This is seal is actually the law of God as spoken of by Isaiah in 8:16 which contains God's sign Ezekiel 20:12,20.

The first angel of Revelation 14 preaches that people should worship the Creator, a preaching also echoed in the Sabbath commandment. The seal of God being placed in the forehead simply means that man must actively remember God as the centre of worship because God Himself is the creator. This memory of God is equally stipulated in the Sabbath commandment which starts with the word REMEMBER as opposed with the others that start with the words Thou shalt not.

So basically, the seal of God in Revelation 7, 14 and the preaching of the first angel calls for people to worship God as the creator thereby asking people to keep the sabbath as contained in the commandments of God. This is emphasized by the fact that God views breaking the sabbath as breaking His commandments see Exodus 16, and also the women could not go to the tomb on Sabbath because they kept the sabbath "according to the commandments".

When therefore we read, "here calls for the patience of the saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" Rev 14:12 we know that the worship of the beast will involve the breaking of these holy and everlasting laws of God including the sabbath.


Why would they think to change laws given by YHWH? Doesnt that sound quiet apocalyptical?

The idea of an earthly system changing the laws of God greatly disturbed the prophet Daniel in Daniel 7-12 where he saw a little horn speaking great words against the most high, persecuting the saints, and defaming the holy temple of God.

The only way Satan can effectively fight the saints is by demanding a breaking of the the law of God either cunningly (see Genesis 3), forcefully (see Daniel 3 and 6), or by making people think that the laws and things of God can be played with (see Daniel 5).

When man therefore has in Himself a spirit that He can actually prosper despite the laws of God, he lifts himself high, thinking that he is greater than God (see Daniel 4) and starts saying that He is God (2Thessolians) which then leads to a demand of worship (see Revelation 13).

Basically, it is only through the deception of Satan that man can think that God is giving commands in order to prevent man from "being like gods". Gen 3:1-5. That the laws of God when disregarded, man can acquire a kind of knowledge that will open his eyes and make him immortal.

[ndigila]

Ndigila,
Please read the below reasoning and give your opinion or challenge:

The seal of God is given by the Holy Spirit which is carried out by an act of angels (see Ezekiel 9 and Revelation 7). The angels specifically places the seal in the forehead of the disciples or 144,000 Israelites. This is seal is actually the law of God as spoken of by Isaiah in 8:16 which contains God's sign Ezekiel 20:12,20.

Note the subjective interpretation in this, you've made an arbitrary similarity between the seal in Revelation and the law (more specifically the 10 commandments, even more specifically keeping the Sabbath.). Revelation simply says that they are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

The first angel of Revelation 14 preaches that people should worship the Creator, a preaching also echoed in the Sabbath commandment.
The seal of God being placed in the forehead simply means that man must actively remember God as the centre of worship because God Himself is the creator. This memory of God is equally stipulated in the Sabbath commandment which starts with the word REMEMBER as opposed with the others that start with the words Thou shalt not.

What you've done here is equivalent to what Ester did in the other thread when she equated the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil to sex. Revelation 14 simply says those with the mark of God on their foreheads worshipped the Lord, and those with the mark of the Beast worshipped the Beast. No mention of Sabbath, no mention that the mark of the Beast is Sunday worship.

So basically, the seal of God in Revelation 7, 14 and the preaching of the first angel calls for people to worship God as the creator thereby asking people to keep the sabbath as contained in the commandments of God. This is emphasized by the fact that God views breaking the sabbath as breaking His commandments see Exodus 16, and also the women could not go to the tomb on Sabbath because they kept the sabbath "according to the commandments".

Grip, the angel calls for the people to worship God period. You've equated worshipping God to keeping the Sabbath which is another subjective interpretation.

When you retreat to Biblical Scholasticism, any arbitrary references can be made and could be validly argued. This is why the Bible was never meant to stand on its own but is part of the Holy Tradition of the Church.

[grip_daddy]

Ndigila,

Before I respond to your counter argument using your line of reasoning, please explain:

1. Your understanding of imagery in Revelation and how to approach them.

2. Specifically what it means to worship God...this will lead us to our not yet settled question; does someone who sincerely prays to God in denomination A worships the same God as another in denomination B? If no, what are the defining standards that would constitute true worship?

3. Do you believe that those who will be worshipping the beast will do so in belief that they are worshipping God?

4. Does Saul's (Paul's) persecution of the early church a reflection that people can persecute thinking that they are for God?

[infinitepyro]

Okay, ya'll waxin diction to the point most of us rn't followin. Answer yes or no to a question b4 writin paragraphs please.

N before we change the topic, Sabbath is any one day out of the seven in a week meant specifically for the worship of YHWH ryt?

[grip_daddy]

N before we change the topic, Sabbath is any one day out of the seven in a week meant specifically for the worship of YHWH ryt? [/color]

Sabbath is the Seventh day rest according to Genesis 2:1-3 which coincides with Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Ndigila,

Before I respond to your counter argument using your line of reasoning, please explain:

1. Your understanding of imagery in Revelation and how to approach them.

I'm not sure if the Orthodox church has any concrete definitions of the imagery in Revelation (just like there isn't any concrete defintions of what the fruits were in Genesis), I'll check and get back to you later. Besides, the way you phrase the question seems as if you want me to use the Bible only approach.

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

2. Specifically what it means to worship God...this will lead us to our not yet settled question; does someone who sincerely prays to God in denomination A worships the same God as another in denomination B? If no, what are the defining standards that would constitute true worship?

Jesus said to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. If you worship God in Spirit and not in Truth, then you are simply having a love affair with a creation formed by misinterpreting scripture. Furthermore, the Bible says that the Church is the pillar and ground of Truth.(1 Tim 3:15) So different churches with different beliefs is already problem.

From personal opinion, I don't think that all denominations are worshipping the same God. The Jesus who's going to rapture Christians can't be the same Jesus who's going to let Christians endure tribulation. The Holy Spirit who gives people the gift of speaking in tongues can't be the same Holy Spirit who tells Christians that speaking in tongues was a gift that ceased in the first century. What's really interesting is that in the past, particular denominations would consider others are heretics. In the early 90s Baptists would not consider Methodists Christians. But now, due to the Charismatic movement, all denominations are seen as essentially Christian (except of course, the Catholic and Orthodox, the two denominations that existed before all the rest).

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

3. Do you believe that those who will be worshipping the beast will do so in belief that they are worshipping God?

Yes. I don't think anyone will knowingly worship the beast.

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

4. Does Saul's (Paul's) persecution of the early church a reflection that people can persecute thinking that they are for God?

This is a loaded question. Grip, before you say that the early church was burning the remnant, you first have to show where they erred.

[grip_daddy]

Imagery of Revelation

As you prepare to come back with orthodox's understanding of Revelation's imagery, let me state my source of reasoning:

Compare Revelation 1:2 and 19:10. Don't you think that the explanation given on what the Testimony of Jesus means, that it is the Spirit of Prophecy, gives a pointer, or a key, on how to approach this book?

Daniel was told to seal his visions and book until the time of the end. A lot of parallels are easily drawn between the book of Daniel and that of Revelation. To me I think that comparing the two scriptures leads to understanding of both.

A quick question, is the church's traditions considered the commandments of God in orthodoxy?