[ernestombayo7]

Where did you get this from? I said "most atheists are undisputedly freethinkers when it comes to religion!" And that makes sense if you read the definition of a freethinker again - one who that holds that beliefs should be formed on the basis of science and logic and not be influenced by emotion, authority, tradition, or any dogma. Since religion and god is all about blind faith and ludicrous dogmas, it logically follows that almost all freethinkers would have to be atheist, and vice versa.

Exactly my point!You have declared that belief in God is blind faith.So we should start from an atheist position.first declare that God does not exist then go on to investigate whether he exists.And thats your version of free-thinking.

So yes, there are atheists who are fanatical, but unlike those Christians who do fanatical things because their religion tells them to, fanatical atheists don't do their crazy things because of their atheism!

There are religious people who do things in the name of religion.But speaking on behalf of Christianity(i am not so confident on islam),It goes contrary to what Christianity teaches.
But just like people will kill because of land,politics,food land etc,so people will kill in the name of Christianity.

You seem to think that a position of "god does not exist" is harmless?
Without God,there are no objective moral standards.Morality is subjective.Thats why hitler and the Germans did not see anything wrong with exterminating the jews.It was the best thing for their society.

So its ironic you would speak of the evils of religion,as if there is an objective moral code we should follow.

[ATLian]

pliz read the thread " are there any good reasons for atheism."
the ten plus reasons you gave for being an atheists and tell me where you mentioned evidence.It was very clear that your atheism was brought about by "problems of religion."

The first thing I wrote on that thread was "The reason I'm an atheist is the exact same reason you don't believe in unicorns, fairies, trolls or ogres: I have never found an iota of evidence to convince me that any deity exists! Period!" I've repeated that countless times on Mashada. I don't know where religion comes in there.

Secondly, the reasons I wrote are more like benefits of being an atheist versus being a theist. You asked "Is there any good reason to become an atheist", and I was giving you good reasons/benefits. You did not ask "What brought about your atheism" so that could not have been what I was answering.



I am not a Christian because simply logic has led me to theism,

What logic is this? Please provide it to us, step by step, how you rationally "logiced" out that your god exists!



i have experienced God in my life.through prayer worship.

Everyone who worships any of the other 32,999 gods not named Jehovah can claim the exact same thing. So of course you know that you cannot use that as evidence, since like all other theists, you cannot prove it.

[ATLian]

Exactly my point!You have declared that belief in God is blind faith.So we should start from an atheist position.first declare that God does not exist then go on to investigate whether he exists.And thats your version of free-thinking.

Not my version but the official version according to the definition of a freethinker. Just like with everything else, we start from not knowing to proving the thing. We never start from asserting the thing bila producing any evidence, then asking the doubters to prove it doesn't exist!



There are religious people who do things in the name of religion.But speaking on behalf of Christianity(i am not so confident on islam),It goes contrary to what Christianity teaches. But just like people will kill because of land,politics,food land etc,so people will kill in the name of Christianity.

I can show you 100 examples from the Christian holy book where the Christian god asks his men to kill babies, innocent little babies. If you were in those armies of god, would you have disobeyed him or done the godly thing and killed those babies? That's what I mean - religion (including Christianity) tells it's followers to do many evil things, and they have to in order to be good followers of that religion.



You seem to think that a position of "god does not exist" is harmless?

Tell me what harms atheism has brought about. If I do not believe a god exists, what harm am I doing to anybody? I can however show you what harms religion has brought about. Almost all wars being fought now have to do with religion. Millions were killed in the Christian crusades, by the Christian colonisation of Africa, etc. Show me again the harm caused by atheism.



Without God,there are no objective moral standards.Morality is subjective.

Without which god, your god? So before the white man came to Africa and blessed us with the knowledge of his god, were all Africans a bunch of immoral people? And is stoning to death someone who works on the sabbath, like your god commands, a moral thing? Give me a freaking break man. This (bila god there is no morality) is one of the dumbest things Christians say, and it's especially dumber when Africans say it.



Thats why hitler and the Germans did not see anything wrong with exterminating the jews.It was the best thing for their society.

Can I remind you that Hitler was a staunch practising Catholic!



So its ironic you would speak of the evils of religion,

Is there any evil of religion that I have quoted that you disagree with?

[ernestombayo7]

What logic is this? Please provide it to us, step by step, how you rationally "logiced" out that your god exists!

am sure your versed with the 15 plus arguments for the existence of God.

Everyone who worships any of the other 32,999 gods not named Jehovah can claim the exact same thing. So of course you know that you cannot use that as evidence, since like all other theists, you cannot prove it.

did i say this was evidence.I was showing you that in Christianity belief inGod is not only logical,but experiential.

Not my version but the official version according to the definition of a freethinker. Just like with everything else, we start from not knowing to proving the thing. We never start from asserting the thing bila producing any evidence, then asking the doubters to prove it doesn't exist!

One who has rejected authority and dogma, especially in religious thinking, in favor of rational inquiry and speculation.

when you realize there is a difference between religion and believing in the existence of a god,then you will see why you cannot be a free-thinker.
why is it necessary that if your not religious,you are atheist?there are people who are deists.
It does not follow that if you reject religion,you become an atheist.

I can show you 100 examples from the Christian holy book where the Christian god asks his men to kill babies, innocent little babies. If you were in those armies of god, would you have disobeyed him or done the godly thing and killed those babies? That's what I mean - religion (including Christianity) tells it's followers to do many evil things, and they have to in order to be good followers of that religion.


of course you have your own interpretations of the bible,and we could debate for hours about what the Bible says.so i reject your assertions that the bible preaches evil.unless you want to open another thread we discuss verse by verse with all that you don't "agree" with in the bible.

Tell me what harms atheism has brought about. If I do not believe a god exists, what harm am I doing to anybody? I can however show you what harms religion has brought about. Almost all wars being fought now have to do with religion. Millions were killed in the Christian crusades, by the Christian colonization of Africa, etc. Show me again the harm caused by atheism.

the Christian crusades killed 200 people.Mao,Hitler Stalin killed a combined 40 million plus.
the two biggest wars in mans history 1st world war and 2nd world war were not religious war.even the cold war,gulf war were not religious wars.Even the middle east conflict is political,arising from land differences.with religion as a side excuse.
name one war,just one war,which is purely based on religion,which has nothing to do with fighting over resources such as land or oil,superiority complex etc.

Can I remind you that Hitler was a staunch practising Catholic!
wao,i can see you have been visiting the atheist sites.just do a google search and click on a link which is purely historical. and you will se that although hitler was born a catholic,he rejected religion.He described himself as "a complete pagan".
ofcourse he befriended the catholic clergy for his political ambitions.
here are quotes from hitler himself:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.

another
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity [is] the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

i'll continue later.gotta go.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by ATLian

The first thing I wrote on that thread was "The reason I'm an atheist is the exact same reason you don't believe in unicorns, fairies, trolls or ogres: I have never found an iota of evidence to convince me that any deity exists! Period!" I've repeated that countless times on Mashada. I don't know where religion comes in there.

ATLian, if you've been following my discourse with Type R, you should realize by now that you can't equate belief in God to belief in unicorns and fairy tales. By denying the existence of God, almost every human behavior and instinct is reduced to an illusion or a misunderstanding.

[Type R]

Originally Posted by ndigila

By your own admission, humans have an extra-natural 'component' to them.

You go to buy 1 kg of meat. The butcher weighs 1 kg. You pay your money, collect the beef and go your way, happy.

But that 1 kg only exists in your mind!!! You've probably bought 0.99987662471837683672364897238 kg of meat, or maybe 1.00023348827348 kg, or even better 1.0202023489398239 kg, or 1.13498390805834 kg. That 1 kg only exists in your mind. The 1 kg is "extra-natural" in the sense that it is as fictitious as a unicorn, but it is a material impression/assumption/illusion stored in grey matter, not in ndigila's world of spirits. "1 kg" as believed by the happy shopper is an error.

Every time you go shopping you are either the victim or a perpetrator of fraud.

The deepest words in the Bible are when Pontius Pilate asks Jesus, "What is truth?" Jesus did not even answer.

[ATLian]

am sure your versed with the 15 plus arguments for the existence of God.

It doesn't matter whether or not I'm versed in them. The question here is please provide us your version, the way you "logiced" out that god exists. Especially with your next statement "I was showing you that in Christianity belief inGod is not only logical,but experiential." in mind. Just exactly how did you experiment and discover that Jehovah exists, and how did you know that it's him and not any of the other 32,999 known gods that were satisfying your experiments!



when you realize there is a difference between religion and believing in the existence of a god,then you will see why you cannot be a free-thinker.

Your conclusion above is a non sequitur, it makes absolutely no sense to me, please expound some more.



why is it necessary that if your not religious,you are atheist?there are people who are deists. It does not follow that if you reject religion,you become an atheist.

Who said all non-religious people are atheists? I know very many people who believe in god but they do none of the religious things. And BTW I have always known that deism is a religion (meaning deists are religious).

[kenyansenorita]

Are free thinkers really free? NO

[ATLian]

of course you have your own interpretations of the bible,and we could debate for hours about what the Bible says.so i reject your assertions that the bible preaches evil.

First of all those are not my assertions, those are facts printed in the Bible for any rational man to see. Secondly, not all verses in the Bible are about intepretation, some are simple and forward in black and white. I can understand that of course, as a Christian, it embarasses you when you see your peaceful, forgiving and loving god ordering his men to kill children, or to destroy cities and kill every living thing in those cities including children, livestock and plants. That's why you have to come up with weak rebuttals like I have my own intepretations! Pole, but your god is an evil killer and there is evidence all over the Bible to prove it. The fact that you want to view those killings from an apologists side and forgive him for the killings while condemning me for calling them killings doesn't change the fact that they were evil killings!



the Christian crusades killed 200 people.Mao,Hitler Stalin killed a combined 40 million plus.

Did you mean 200, as in 198, 199, 200 - ama 200, 000 or some other high number like that?

Secondly, Mao, Hitler and Stalin killed more than 40 million people. So what's your point?

Finally, to quote Hitler: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."



name one war,just one war,which is purely based on religion,which has nothing to do with fighting over resources such as land or oil,superiority complex etc.

There are 23 current conflicts and wars that are based on religion. BTW I can't think of a war that is based on purely one thing, and one thing alone, right now. So all those things end up mixing up. e.g. the reason Iran and Iraq went to war was because Iran is Shiite, while Iraq was mainly Sunnis who kaliad their Shiite minorities. So religion was the major factor, and of course those oil fields came into play.

[ernestombayo7]

it doesn't matter whether or not i'm versed in them. The question here is please provide us your version, the way you "logiced" out that god exists. Especially with your next statement "i was showing you that in christianity belief ingod is not only logical,but experiential." in mind. Just exactly how did you experiment and discover that jehovah exists, and how did you know that it's him and not any of the other 32,999 known gods that were satisfying your experiments!

you want me to explain all the arguments for the existence of god?when i tell you that its logic that led me to the belief in god i actually do mean the logical arguments for the existence of god.

Finetuning argument,

cosmological argument

moral argument

argument from numbers

argument from the existence of knowledge

transcendental arguments

resurrection of jesus christ

existence of abstract objects argument etc etc

all of the above and many other philosophical arguments for the existence of god are only compatible with the christian concept of god.eg the existence of moral absolutes negates the possibility of a deist type of god. If there is a religion which has a concept of god that is in tandem with all of the philosophical arguments for god(including the resurrection of jesus as proof of the existence of god),and there concept of god is non-contradictory, then that religion and christianity are referring to the same cause of the universe.

your conclusion above is a non sequitur, it makes absolutely no sense to me, please expound some more.

i think i explained myself clearly.when you view the belief of in the existence of a god as a religious claim and not a philosophical claim,then go ahead and dismiss it,your not being a freethinker.since you have not investigated the truth value of the claims. who said all non-religious people are atheists? i know very many people who believe in god but they do none of the religious things. And btw i have always known that deism is a religion (meaning deists are religious).

exactly,now you should stop equating the belief in god to religion.and address the claims that a non-material causal agent of the universe might exist. Don't bring up wars,dont bring up the bible and your problems with the bible.all this adds zero to the claims of a first cause of the universe.address the central problem first.was our universe created?does a god exist?is the universe intelligently designed?etc etc.

Deists are people who hold on to the idea that there is enough evidence that our universe was created,is fine tuned but do not hold to the idea that god is actively involved in the creation.simply god created the universe and left it.he's not personal.as far as they are concerned god may have even seized to exist after he created the universe.

Nb: read william lanes craig and gary habermas on the resurrection of jesus christ as evidence for the existence of god.this is to save you and me time asking for proof for the resurrection. dr. Gary r. Habermas - online resource for the resurrection of jesus christ read the fine tuning arguments here cosmological argument here all this is to save time you asking me to explain the arguments.if you want links to more of the arguments just ask.