[jasakwa]

When some one uses the ward ‘devil’ what picture do you immediately see through your mind’s eye?? Is it that of a horned black humanlike creature??,

I used to think like that but not anymore,after reading the bible properly i understand that the devil can even appear in a human form,any race.and not all people can descern the devil,only those gifted by the holy spirit.

Most people will say that you cannot talk about Witchcraft existence without talking about devil. What exactly do you refer to as the ‘devil?’

The devil is Satan.He was a holy angel before but he revolted against God and as a result he was expelled from heaven.Now he is in the earth with his army misleading the human race.It is believed among the christians that witchraft are evil tools use by the devil to distort them from knowing the truth.

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God." -Deuteronomy 18:10-13

Please make yourself clear on 'branch of the devil', 'organized hierarchy' and 'Truth' you mentioned above[/quote]

The devil has his kingdom,just like God has his,and human's also have their own form of governance system,this is what am refering to.

Mathew 12: 25-28
Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

[Atabong]

To question witchcraft existence is also to question supernatural and/or magic existence. When we assess the meaning that has been associated with or imposed upon such wards we will gradually see that it is really no wonder that such a nonentity as witchcraft has impacted and shaped our social cohesion and material development the way it has.

In preparing the parkage of contemporary religions (mainly Christianity and Islam) for Africa, it became necessary for the propagators to identify aspects of the indigenous people’s culture and/or religious beliefs that contradicted their accepted ideologies.

The way the people regarded certain natural phenomena: the air, water, lakes, waterfalls, mountains, thunder and lightning; how the people celebrated births and name the new born, burried and remembered their dead, marriages, innitations into man/womanhood, cure the sick; in short, how the people appreciated good and bad, wealth and poverty, health and sickness, love and hate, light and darkness, life and death etc became crucial.

That said, history and logic tells us that if you desire to conqure some one, raise the status of you’re own gods, and make that person’s gods your demons so you can justify your actions.

[Atabong]

Originally Posted by jasakwa

Just visit some parts of kisii and rural mombasa,or places with plenty of waswahili and you will agree they exist.

How do you account for this disparity between reports of Witchcraft existence in the rural and urban areas?

Originally Posted by jasakwa

I used to think like that but not anymore,after reading the bible properly i understand that the devil can even appear in a human form,any race.and not all people can descern the devil,only those gifted by the holy spirit

What do you refer to as holy spirit, can a non-religious (Non-Christian to be precise) be gifted by the holy spirit? Can you say the Holy Spirit gifts you? If yes, who in your opinion is the devil as opposed to the horned black creature creeping up our ceilings in the night and causing harm?

Originally Posted by jasakwa

The devil is Satan.He was a holy angel before but he revolted against God and as a result he was expelled from heaven.Now he is in the earth with his army misleading the human race.It is believed among the christians that witchraft are evil tools use by the devil to distort them from knowing the truth.

Can you use the wards Devil and Satan interchangeably? As a self-professing Christian, one would naturally expect you to know the truth, what is this truth?

Originally Posted by jasakwa

The devil has his kingdom,just like God has his,and human's also have their own form of governance system,this is what am refering to.

The Devil’s Kingdom, God’s Kingdom are separate and independent of the one governed by humans, is this what you are saying?

(It's not an interrogation; you are not expected to answer all the questions)

[Atabong]

I recently ran into a long lost mate who told me she just returned from the village to see her parents concerning the sweetheart she wanted to marry. ‘Good for you’, I said. A shadowy blankness crossed her face when she explained to me it didn’t work out. She said her mum called her in the back yard and told her that family have deliberated upon the issue and conclude that: ‘can not’, why? I asked, and she said, my people said my fiancé’s got far to much witchcraft running around his family

In North Eastern Tanzania, is a ‘drumming and fuming’ twin waterfall and a pool below it; tourists trek miles through the hills in the dry season to swim in it and savour the gorgeous freshness, but guess what? The village people dare not go near, they believe a mermaid-like creature together with witches and wizards live in it, so I set out on December 20th 2003 to investigate these claims.

Friends tell me Witchcraft is far too complex than meet the eye. And I ask, how did a nonentity as witchcraft evolve through the centuries and accumulate such massive stigma; hot potatoes, no one wants to touch. Mere mention/discuss witchcraft is a risk of been called a witch! Do older people, the religious and those in positions of authority mystify simple things to create fear and remain in control whilst leaving the masses in captivity?

A shunned kid whom family and relatives believe is possessed by or a reincarnation of some witch and crap like that, an elderly woman whom everybody believes is killing her grand children through witchcraft, a man who ‘disown’ his wife because the witch doctor tells him the reason things are not working out for him is because his wife or so-and-so relative is witch. Beasts uproot tubers and a witch is sought after, a woman cannot bring forth children because she abused her youth yet a witch mother-in-law is sought after; the stories are inexhaustible and some one else always takes the blame.

[jasakwa]

How do you account for this disparity between reports of Witchcraft existence in the rural and urban areas?

Well in rural you mostly find witches and socerous, those who run at night kicking doors, scaring people and some have been reported to be attacking graves especially in kisii.But also healers are there also known as medicine men who use herbs with enchantments. There are also those who promise wealth and make people sacrifice their children.
In rural areas you will mostly find the diviners and fortune tellers, healers and those who use evil to harm others.e.g two women who share a man, one woman going to the witch doctor and bewitch the other with sickness or poverty.

What do you refer to as holy spirit, can a non-religious (Non-Christian to be precise) be gifted by the holy spirit?


No Holy Spirit is give to believers; you must believe first, confess you sins and accept Jesus as your personal savior, then ask and obey.
Can you say the Holy Spirit gifts you?
Yes the Holy Spirit is the one who gives the gifts according to his will.He decides who to give which gift.
If yes, who in your opinion is the devil as opposed to the horned black creature creeping up our ceilings in the night and causing harm?
The devil has identity but perhaps its secretive, his forces can posses people directly or indirectly and mislead people from the way of truth.


Can you use the wards Devil and Satan interchangeably?


Satan and devil is same only different names, he also has other names like fallen angel of light, Lucifer. The latter part of Ezekiel 28:Verse 16 also describes himas cherub having been “cast…out of” heaven. God also said He would “destroy” (Hebrew: expel) Lucifer from heaven. Verse 17 reveals that his “heart was lifted up because of [his] beauty” and that his wisdom was “corrupted…by reason of brightness.” The verse ends with God “casting him down to the ground,” where the kings of the earth would him.”

As a self-professing Christian, one would naturally expect you to know the truth, what is this truth?


The truth is found in Jesus; he came and died for our sins, paying the ransom that the devil held on us, Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can be saved except through Him.


The Devil’s Kingdom, God’s Kingdom are separate and independent of the one governed by humans, is this what you are saying?


Yes just like humans have their own system of governance or leadership, the devil also has his, and as we all know God also has his own.

[charuakl]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Witchcraft as a practice exists. What should be argued out is whether the practice is a form of deception, magic trick, mental illusion or real.

As you have said above, one can either accept its reality, be fixed at a middle ground not knowing whether to reject the facts, or just turn the available facts into some kind of psychological disorder resulting from belief in the capability of the illusionated reality of this concept.

Personaly being a believer in the existence of supernatural life form, both good and evil, and with knowledge to the nature and intent of the conflict between these two, do accept not only the existance of witchcraft, but also the power thereof.

I really dont want to go into indepth narration of how the supernaturals interact with human beings as a means to accomplish the end of the said conflict, but would summarily say that the evil life forms use witchcraft as one tool or weapon to achieve their end of the bargain in the conflict.

Minor details and expansion of the subject herein given for discussion will be brought out if the contributions make need for clarifications.

Now we must understand that witchcraft and all those mysterious things that associate with are all the devils work. you see he has sent out demons in this world. thus some demons work is to show miraculous signs etc so thatthose who see will be led away from Jesus Christ. that way people willbe more attracted to the people who perform the miracles here on earth that are visible. If we ask where do the witches get therepower it is the same same dmons that dwell in them and give them power.

[Atabong]

In the days of the Romans, they were so bent on creating their God that anything which crossed path with their ideology or which they could not understand quickly gained the reputation of 'handiwrok of the devil'.

One of such things was the practice of herbal or traditional medicine, in Europe this was mainly by women.

This contradicted their borrowed concepts of a male dominated world ruled by a supreme but masculine God.

Over six million women were accused of using supernatural powers or magic in various ways as the Romans saw fit; these were all burnt alive to serve as a deterrent to those who will not succumb to the authority of God and mother church.

[Atabong]

Originally Posted by jasakwa

How do you account for this disparity between reports of Witchcraft existence in the rural and urban areas?

Well in rural you mostly find witches and socerous, those who run at night kicking doors, scaring people and some have been reported to be attacking graves especially in kisii.But also healers are there also known as medicine men who use herbs with enchantments. There are also those who promise wealth and make people sacrifice their children.
In rural areas you will mostly find the diviners and fortune tellers, healers and those who use evil to harm others.e.g two women who share a man, one woman going to the witch doctor and bewitch the other with sickness or poverty.

My contention is that reports of witchcraft existence are more prevalent in rural as opposed to urban because:

Widespread poverty: Inhabitants of rural areas are mostly the poor and uneducated. The extended family systems and networks ensure that the beliefs of the older generations on whom the younger depend are never questioned.

In the rural areas reports of seeing ghosts and witches spread very quickly because people engage in idle talk, telling, magnifying and more often than not spreading false stories. It goes without saying that polygamy and one man bringing forth a ‘brood’ of children he cannot cater for is more prevalent in the rural areas because people need something to direct their energies at.

As I have said before, poverty breeds fear and insecurity, a complete recipe for seeing ghosts and undesirable creatures in dreams.

I cannot vouch for all African traditional/herbal healers because the practice has seen lots of amateurs and money mongering opportunists of late. African Herbal or traditional medicine is a benevolent practice rooted deep in African traditions, which stood in the way of the colonists’ quest for drug trials and drug markets so it had to be discouraged at all costs.

It has often baffled me why religious people are so quick to say diviner, fortune teller, magician, sorcerer, etc and yet call their own practice of adoring and calling upon the assistance of a supernatural being (in which ever manner) holy. It would appear the actions of he that owns the most real estates are always correct.

[Atabong]

Originally Posted by jasakwa

What do you refer to as holy spirit, can a non-religious (Non-Christian to be precise) be gifted by the holy spirit?

No Holy Spirit is give to believers; you must believe first, confess you sins and accept Jesus as your personal savior, then ask and obey.

What then moved the biblical good Samritan and non-christians of today who assist ophans and the underpreviledged etc.

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by Atabong

What then moved the biblical good Samritan and non-christians of today who assist ophans and the underpreviledged etc.

The bible also records that the spirit with which Jesus resurrected preached salvation to the pre flood souls (spirits) during Noah's time. The Holy Spirit convict everyone to show them repentance, otherwise God would be unjust sending those who never heard of the gospel to eternal death.

On the other hand, specific gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, healing, preaching, teaching, etc are given by the Holy Spirit according to His measure. The receiver does not have to be in a high standing with God (according to mass knowledge) like in the case of Jonah.