[jasakwa]

If God's will really is for the church, then shouldn't that include all churches believing and teaching the same thing?

The human being has weaknesses that is why Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to help us overcome our infirmities.But unless all the churches embrace him,how can your point be achieved.If you attend different denominational services you will notice that there is less emphasis given to the Holy spirit.

1 Timothy 6:3-5: 3If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.



Doesn't union and fellowship not just include individuals but all the churches in general?

Yes it does,and i must emphasise that there should be more effort done to improve interdenominational fellowships.

[grip_daddy]

@Ndigila
I agree that the concepts you have chosen above are critical and need analysis. There are however people who see no error in differing views when such truths are being fronted by the claimed power and conviction, inspiration of the same Holy Spirit. And I want to pick on Rapture teaching to ask Jasakwa a question:

@Jasakwa, you say clearly that the only important truth to know is the truth about salvation in Jesus Christ. But for Jesus Christ to offer Himself as the savior, He had to; offer Himself willingly ages before He came to earth, take upon Himself human body to be born as man, live on earth as any other man and finally die, and lastly resurrect to ascend to heaven and promise to come back a second time.

The above named sequential activities happened the they did and were revealed to us for the purpose of our own salvation. See Deut 29:29. The revelation could only be done by the Holy Spirit who is said to be the Spirit of truth, to give wisdom and understanding of the hidden things of God, and enable believers grow to maturity in matters pertaining to God and salvation.

We all believe that Jesus will come back a second time in a certain day and a certain manner. The manner and events that must happen before He comes, how the believers will be taken by Him to heaven, and the meaning of the 1000 years period are having conflicting interpretations. In this respect it is therefore rational to say that since only one WAY of the numerous interpretations will take place, all those other interpretations that are not predicting what will happen are false (not truth) and therefore not Holy Spirit inspired.

You may argue that are specific interpretations important? Yes they are. Especially the second coming of Christ had been a great issue to the disciples, the early believers and so for us today. So it is logical to ask; will Christ come, rapture the church, let antichrist rule for 7 years then He comes now visibly after the 7 years, or will He come visibly once, rapture the believers in everyones full view, go with them to heaven for 1000 years and afterwards come back to earth to live with them for ever here on earth, or will He just cause earth changes through earth quake, thunder and hail stones, believers resurrect, live on earth for 1000 years where sinners are killed immediately they sin, or will He come in a rapture, live the earth to enjoy peace for a 1000 years and then come back to implant His Kingdom forever, etc?

If the actual way of His coming above is only one, then why is everyone who claims the other ways saying they also had inspirition from the Holy Spirit? Why did the Holy Spirit give conflicting views about the second coming?

I think we cannot just limit the truth to Jesus, but also we must know the content and context of His teachings for they are necessary elements of our salvation. If you limit the truth to just believing in Him, then it is actually admitting that Jesus wasted His time teaching the people who came to Him about issues other than love, good neighborhood etc, for Jesus also talked about the manner of His second coming. See Matt 24.

We should explore these concepts and if a particular church does not teach accordingly, then that church must be taken as not being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by t.D.A.

I know who you are!! Same class!Wats up you guy, long time! Why being so cryptic man? What's happening?

Check your private messages

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by jasakwa

Let us ask ourselves what this truth is in the first place.Many people have misquoted this verse to forward their arguements that catholic is the foundation of the church.I think we should focus on the truth the verse is talking about rather than demoninations.

The truth the verse is talking about is Jesus and teh writer goes further in next verse of the same chapter to explain ..

"Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[c] appeared in a body,[d]
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory."

The different churches agree on this am sure,their differences is mainly in the traditions,practices,rituals which are mostly human driven to make them look different from others.If the churches would only dwell on the teachings from the scriptures and shun the individual church doctrines there wouldn't be so much division.The human weaknesses are a big liability to the church unity,and thats why they were all called upon to embrace the Holy Spirit.

You are trying to play down the differences. The differences arise from disagreements on the meaning of scripture and not just traditions, practices and rituals. If the verses you quote above are all that is needed for a church to be considered Christian, then aren't you elevating the status of those bible verses above the rest? Won't we have to redefine what the word of God is?

Which brings to light another question, how much room for doctrinal error is allowed for a church to be considered heretical and not just another Christian denomination?

Originally Posted by jasakwa

Division is not new at all check out the verses below;

Jude 17-1917 But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18 that they were saying to you, “In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.” 19 These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

In verse 20 and 21 he says we should keep growing in the faith of the Church. What is the faith of the church if there's different churches with different faiths?

Originally Posted by jasakwa

1 Cor 11:18-20
18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part, I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may have become evident among you.

Those bible verses say that those who are approved may become evident among the factions. As in truth would clearly stand out from error. We don't have that today. The way things are, if denominationalism was the way to go, we can't know who's preaching the truth and who's preaching the error.

Originally Posted by jasakwa

1 Cor 1:10-1310 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree, and there be no divisions among you, but you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” 13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Jasakwa, note Paul's attitude towards the division. It was a problem that had to be solved. It was a bad thing. We have a totally different attitude towards division. We treat it as if it's a problem not worth solving.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by jasakwa

What are these different things the Holy spirit has told different christians?
The Mission of the Holy spirit is to help the church manage the truth that Jesus revealed.May be the question we ought to ask ourselves is how can we identify the holy spirit?The earth is full of spirits remember satan and his army were hurled upon the earth after their fall in heaven.Christians are cautioned about believeing in just any spirit.Most people have wrongly believed that anyone who can prophecise is filled with the holy spirit,some people prophecise using evil spirits.This is how important the holy spirit is important in church.

In I John 4.1-3, the Bible tells the Christian, "believe not every spirit, but try (test) the spirits whether they are of God because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby (in this way), know ye the Spirit of God. Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God. And this is that spirit of anti-Christ, whereof ye have heard that it should come, and even now already is it in the world."

Finally, you've identified the problem. But how do you go about distinguishing between holy spirit and the devilish spirits?

[jasakwa]

@jasakwa - If the actual way of His coming above is only one, then why is everyone who claims the other ways saying they also had inspirition from the Holy Spirit? Why did the Holy Spirit give conflicting views about the second coming?

There is no conflicting view at all Grip.Let us acknowledge that there is a difference between rapture and his second coming.Rapture which will come before the great tribulation is described in Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 while his second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.The Rapture and Second Coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the Rapture is the return of Christ to the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The Second Coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the Tribulation to an end and to defeat the antichrist and his evil world empire.

The scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit so the conflict is not arising from him but from the readers who interpret it differently.God has always had a way of rescueing his people from his wrath,remember the noah's floods,sodom and gomorrah.He saved his remnant before pouring purnishment on them.The great tribulation has been described as a time so difficult that had the days not been reduced no flesh would survive out of it,and there is no calamity in the history of the World than can compare to it.Judging from the past it is rational that the chritian remnants will be taken away prior to the period.Now you might ask,shall there be christians in the great tribulation?yes ,it is logical to expect the self-convicted relatives and friends of the rapturees coming together to seek grace from God having heard their loved ones preach to them.But principally it will be time for God's attention to the jews,to convince them that Jesus is the true messaih.


I think we cannot just limit the truth to Jesus, but also we must know the content and context of His teachings for they are necessary elements of our salvation. If you limit the truth to just believing in Him, then it is actually admitting that Jesus wasted His time teaching the people who came to Him about issues other than love, good neighborhood etc, for Jesus also talked about the manner of His second coming. See Matt 24.We should explore these concepts and if a particular church does not teach accordingly, then that church must be taken as not being inspired by the Holy Spirit.


I totally agree.

[jasakwa]

@Jasakwa,
You may argue that are specific interpretations important? Yes they are. Especially the second coming of Christ had been a great issue to the disciples, the early believers and so for us today. So it is logical to ask; will Christ come, rapture the church, let antichrist rule for 7 years then He comes now visibly after the 7 years, or will He come visibly once, rapture the believers in everyones full view, go with them to heaven for 1000 years and afterwards come back to earth to live with them for ever here on earth, or will He just cause earth changes through earth quake, thunder and hail stones, believers resurrect, live on earth for 1000 years where sinners are killed immediately they sin, or will He come in a rapture, live the earth to enjoy peace for a 1000 years and then come back to implant His Kingdom forever, etc?

Actually if you peruse the passages that speakabout endtimes you will discover that there no conflict at all.The complexness is brought about by the fact that the books were written at different times by different people,and compiled also by different people.The word itself is Holy Spirit inspired but the sequence of compilation was human,the story flows nonetheless.

Sequence should be like this Grip

1.Rapture(christ meets believers in the clouds,the dead in christ arise,bodies transformed and taken to heaven).

2.Holy Spirit taken aways from earth.(2thes 2:7)

3.Tribulation.

4.Christ Second coming.

5.Christ Millenium rule on earth.

6.Satan bound and confined.

7.1st Jugdement(mercy seat judgement).

8.Satan loosened.

9.2nd Judgement(great white judgement).

10.New heaven and New Earth.

[grip_daddy]

@Jasakwa

You realise how you have an interpretation of the rapture. Ok here comes another:

There will not be any Christian or believer that will be taken out of this world before the great tribulation. Read Rev 7 and notice the 144,000 thousand chosen ones that came from the house of Israel who were sealed before the great tribulation vs 1-4. After their sealing, John noticed another group of believers "a great multitude that no one could count". Vs 9. Because no one could count them, they are not therefore the previous sealed ones.

"Then one of the elders asked me, 'These in white robes-who are they, and where did they come from?'" "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." vs 13,14.

The great multitude came out of the great tribulation having overcome. The events of great tribulation starts after the sealing of the 144,000 thousand, Rev 14-16. It is during the pouring of the sixth wrath that Jesus declares He would come as a thief. Rev 16:15. It therefore implies that His coming as a thief had not happened before the great tribulation, which manner of coming is interpretated to mean secret rapture.

The other verses that imply secret rapture do not any way intuinate the presence of secrecy as taught by some faiths. Look at 1 Thel 4 which you had given above. Some of Paul's words include "the coming of the Lord". These words means the occurrence described in this chapter are those of the coming of the Lord, according to the Lord's own words. Vs 15. "The Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God." vs 16. The words loud command, voice of archangel, and trumpet of God tells you there would be nothing secret. Lets have a look at Mat 24.

After Jesus had said that the great temple will collapse with no stone left on another, some disciples were concerned and they went to Jesus to seek knowledge on "when will this happen, and what will be the signs of your coming and of the end of the age" vs 3. Jesus described a lot of things that will be happening, and later on said that His coming will not be secret. He cautioned them against setting dates, and against interpreting wars and rumors of war to mean His second coming "for false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and deceive even the elect-if that were possible." vs 24.

Go back to the great tribulation verses in Revelation and notice the miracles Jesus talked about after the pouring of the sixth wrath. The frogs performing miracles etc. Here in Matt 24 Jesus is telling them that the miracles would even deceive the very elect if it were possible, but it will not be possible. Why? Some say it is because the elect would have been raptured. But Jesus said it because He had told them in advance. vs 25.

It is "immediately after the distress of those days" that great signs and wonders will happen thereafter "the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other". Vs 30,31.

Note the elect will be gathered after the distress but not before. They will be gathered after the sign of the Son of Man has appeared in heaven, and with loud trumpet call. It is this event that Paul described. These explanations does not include some secret rapture as you outlined above.

So, which explanation is right? Both seen perfectly rational and how do we know it is not me that's wrong? Your explanation is from some faiths, mine from an opposing faith. Both faiths believe in Christ, and one must be wrong. We want to know the right one.

We will not limit it to the only two explanations, but also include other explanations, and the best way we do it is to go by Ndigila's list. Hope we will arrive at the truth.

[jasakwa]

There will not be any Christian or believer that will be taken out of this world before the great tribulation. Read Rev 7 and notice the 144,000 thousand chosen ones that came from the house of Israel who were sealed before the great tribulation vs 1-4. After their sealing, John noticed another group of believers "a great multitude that no one could count". Vs 9. Because no one could count them, they are not therefore the previous sealed ones.
"Then one of the elders asked me, 'These in white robes-who are they, and where did they come from?'" "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." vs 13,14.

The great multitude came out of the great tribulation having overcome. The events of great tribulation starts after the sealing of the 144,000 thousand, Rev 14-16. It is during the pouring of the sixth wrath that Jesus declares He would come as a thief. Rev 16:15. It therefore implies that His coming as a thief had not happened before the great tribulation, which manner of coming is interpretated to mean secret rapture.

Grip let us agree that there is clear distinction between God's program for Israel and God's program for the Church. The 144,000 is a representation of the remnant of jews apportioned during the tribulation period.
Of the 144,000 Jews these are the remnants among to be saved during the tribulation, These are the jews covereted to christianity who will stay the course with Christians left behind,You offcourse are aware that two witnesses will appear before the tribulation and will convince jews that Jesus is the true messaiah, they are mentioned again in rev 14 as “purchased” from among men which signifies they accepted Jesus who is our redeemer(paid ransom) the great this multitude of Gentiles are those who accept Jesus after the Rapture and who are martyred for their faith during the Tribulation.

The other verses that imply secret rapture do not any way intuinate the presence of secrecy as taught by some faiths. Look at 1 Thel 4 which you had given above. Some of Paul's words include "the coming of the Lord". These words means the occurrence described in this chapter are those of the coming of the Lord, according to the Lord's own words. Vs 15. "The Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God." vs 16. The words loud command, voice of archangel, and trumpet of God tells you there would be nothing secret.

Grip in both scenario of his coming(rapture and second coming) the secrecy is not on how he comes but when he comes,the day,hour,minute and second of his coming is secret. His coming will be with show of power and authority even the romans who crucified him will know and mourn.

Rev 1:7 "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen." NIV

Matt 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory." NIV

Lets have a look at Mat 24.


After Jesus had said that the great temple will collapse with no stone left on another, some disciples were concerned and they went to Jesus to seek knowledge on "when will this happen, and what will be the signs of your coming and of the end of the age" vs 3. Jesus described a lot of things that will be happening, and later on said that His coming will not be secret. He cautioned them against setting dates, and against interpreting wars and rumors of war to mean His second coming "for false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and deceive even the elect-if that were possible." vs 24.

Go back to the great tribulation verses in Revelation and notice the miracles Jesus talked about after the pouring of the sixth wrath. The frogs performing miracles etc. Here in Matt 24 Jesus is telling them that the miracles would even deceive the very elect if it were possible, but it will not be possible. Why? Some say it is because the elect would have been raptured. But Jesus said it because He had told them in advance. vs 25.

It is "immediately after the distress of those days" that great signs and wonders will happen thereafter "the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other". Vs 30,31.

Note the elect will be gathered after the distress but not before. They will be gathered after the sign of the Son of Man has appeared in heaven, and with loud trumpet call. It is this event that Paul described. These explanations does not include some secret rapture as you outlined above.

Grip remember even in Jesus account of the end times events he mentioned something about two will be on the roof one will be take and the other left. Jesus account covered the two events.

[grip_daddy]

Grip remember even in Jesus account of the end times events he mentioned something about two will be on the roof one will be take and the other left. Jesus account covered the two events.

The analogy of two being on the roof, two grinding, two in the field, etc where one is taken and one is left simply means that some will go to heaven, while others will not. For example, now Jasakwa and Grip are friends, if after the tribulation which both were in, Jasakwa goes to heaven while Grip doesnt, the saying that two will be in mashada, one taken and another left, will be true. If you read carefully, especially Revelation 20:1-5, you will realize those who will have been left will be dead here on earth, that is, they will be left here on earth and not make it to heaven with the others.

Also remember your verses to intuinate that the church will be raptured actually was talking about the actual second coming. Paul said it was about the coming of the Lord according to His (JESUS) words. Jesus' words were about the destruction of Jerusalem, His second coming, and the end of the age. So to me I dont see where it is supported biblicaly that the church will be taken out of this world before the great tribulation.

Actually my point is not that we start discussing the rapture and see who is wrong and who is right, but to tell you that these interpretations are conflicting and both cannot be said to be from one Holy Spirit's inspiration. You will realise one branch of Christianity saying it doesn't matter where you go to church, despite these obvious conflicts and divisions.

You will hear another faith claiming that doctrine is non important so long as you confess Jesus as Lord and savior, yet these denomination disagree on the methodologies in which Jesus saves. So Jasakwa, you will have to agree with us that indeed we should strive to get to the WILL, the WAY and the REQUIREMENT of our Lord Jesus Christ, so that we worship Him in TRUTH and in Spirit.

Please note above the word TRUTH is not used to mean sincerity of heart, neither the feeling in the heart of spirit influence (the influence may as well come from an evil spirit) but the word TRUTH is used to entail all the basic philosophies, ideologies, doctrines and teachings about this TRUTH.

Also have in mind that Satan is capable of misleading many. Paul writing to Timothy, described a group of people who will be "always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth" as one major characteristic of those who will be living during the end time. They will "oppose the truth". 2 Tim 3:7,8. Peter talked about the coming of "false teachers among [us]" who will "introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them-bringing swift destruction upon themselves". Please read Peter carefully when he goes ahead to state that "Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit [us] with stories they have made up." 2 Pet 2:1-3.

Personally I believe there will never be any Christian taken out of this earth before the great tribulation, you believe otherwise. In your endeavour to convince me to accept that there will be a taking away of Christians before the antichrist period, means you too whole heartily believe in that. One of us (or even both because there are other faith groups with totally different interpretations from the two we have mentioned) is obviously wrong. Now the question is, why are others wrong? Who is right? How do we know?

We have to assume our own beliefs and start exploring scripture together.