[ndigila]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

i want to ask these questions for logical and rational thinking, so that from there we know about the truth of the necessity to either neglect church attendance, or the possibility of two different people believing in one thing differently.

1. We *all* believe that god is one (the father, the son and the holy spirit), thereby implying that he has only one will, one way to relate with man (through christ), and one major requirement from man, that is, worship. If god through the holy spirit goes to person a, and convicts him, and shows him a truth (e.g. That jewelry is wrong or not wrong), is it possible for the same holy spirit to convict person b with an opposite message?

2. If the answer of question one is no, why are there conflicting teachings across religions, denominations and faiths?

3. If the answer to question one is yes, are all religions and denomination in existence today working for god? or just some? why the need of different religions and denominations with divergent belief systems who only worship one god who has one will, one way and one requirement? why did god bring these into play yet he could only have one group of believers as seen during the times of the disciples?

4. If the reality of situation three above is god ordained, then is that not a god who creates confusion? (paul said that our god is a god of order and not a god of confusion).

5. Is indepth study of the bible necessary to know the god's will, way and requirements, and two people who are led by the same holy spirit to undertand the same bible required to arrive at same understanding? would conflicting understandings mean absence of holy spirit in either one person or even both (human led reading and reasoning only)?

Finally!!! Somebody who gets it!!!

I don't believe that its possible for two people being led by the same Holy Spirit to receive contradicting revelations, which is why the question "Which church is the right church?" should be an unavoidable question for all Christians.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

My thoughts exactly. But since you dont believe in the existence of the Holy Ghost, I'll wait before I give my understanding to the questions I raised; just to get a dimension of thoughts I might not be aware of.

Not believing in the Holy Ghost does not in any way influence my ability to discuss it rationally. I know you don't believe Wonder Woman and The Incredible Hulk exist, but that wouldn't stop for from rationalizing how the Hulk would pound Wonder Woman into a pulp if they ever had a fight!

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by ATLian

Not believing in the Holy Ghost does not in any way influence my ability to discuss it rationally. I know you don't believe Wonder Woman and The Incredible Hulk exist, but that wouldn't stop for from rationalizing how the Hulk would pound Wonder Woman into a pulp if they ever had a fight!

The reality that numerous religious beliefs and Christian denominations are here with us seem to contradict the existence of God. When understood from my questions alone, it would be easy to conclude that the absence of a universal belief system resulting from the all humanity conviction by an all powerful Holy Ghost is a proof in itself that actually God doesn't exist. So in reality, due to non existence of God, humans just read the same bible without any Divine influence; a statement I disagree with.

My approval of your contribution was said when my thoughts coincided with your rationality. The idea of waiting for a contribution, especially from those who argue that the denomination one subscribes to, or that not identifying oneself to a particular denomination (non attendance to church), does not matter so long as you read the bible under the influence of the Holy Spirit, was to seek further explanation to the presence of many religions and belief systems given my questions.

So, I would also request explanations from you assuming logics below:

1. That God is (just assume He exists) whose WILL is one, has one WAY to be related to, and also demand one major REQUIREMENT from man.

2. That He has the power to convict every human being to the knowledge of the one, WILL, one WAY, and one REQUIREMENT.

That would give reasons to the presence of many belief systems.

My rationality is that some people have refused or rejected to listen to the conviction of the Holy Ghost thereby forming other belief systems alongside that of God. Despite clear logics and bible verses about God's WAY, these people still want to worship God in their own WAYS. Call it freedom of choice.

This means there is only one religion, one faith, one body (one church) and one truth which God Himself has ordained that God requires every believer to subscribe to. I will expand on this later.

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by ndigila

Finally!!! Somebody who gets it!!!

I don't believe that its possible for two people being led by the same Holy Spirit to receive contradicting revelations, which is why the question "Which church is the right church?" should be an unavoidable question for all Christians.

We have one ground in common; that it is practically illogical for the very one God with one inspiration and one truth to spread conflicting information to humanity. This would create confusion and self contradiction of God.

Now because we reason from the same script, it would be a good idea for us to explore, unearth facts, and argue logically what are these parameters that God has which one must subscribe to if that person is indeed following God's WAY, and also keeping God's REQUIREMENT, and which denomination therefore, has these attributes manifested in its teachings.

Even before I go further, I would propose elimination of all denominations that preach and teach that it doesn't matter what denomination you belong to, for such teachings contradict the logics I raised in my questions earlier on. Any input?

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Even before I go further, I would propose elimination of all denominations that preach and teach that it doesn't matter what denomination you belong to, for such teachings contradict the logics I raised in my questions earlier on. Any input?

The question should be "what put us in this mess in the first place?" The church was undivided for some 1000 years. What exactly happened?

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by ndigila

The question should be "what put us in this mess in the first place?" The church was undivided for some 1000 years. What exactly happened?

The church's history is filled with astonishing events; including and not limited to persecutions, falling out from the truth, disregarding the teachings of the patriarchs and the prophets, elevating man to God's standards, denying freedom of choice and liberty thereof. The church history should be properly examined. It is the root cause of the many denominations when a fight to restore freedom of worship, understanding God's WILL, the WAY and the REQUIREMENT was called for by some reformists.

These reformists after disregarding the principles of the church ran away and formed their own gatherings. But the questions still remains...what is that particular WILL of God, it's only sure WAY and the detailed REQUIREMENTS that man should identify with?

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

The church's history is filled with astonishing events; including and not limited to persecutions, falling out from the truth, disregarding the teachings of the patriarchs and the prophets, elevating man to God's standards, denying freedom of choice and liberty thereof. The church history should be properly examined. It is the root cause of the many denominations when a fight to restore freedom of worship, understanding God's WILL, the WAY and the REQUIREMENT was called for by some reformists.

These reformists after disregarding the principles of the church ran away and formed their own gatherings. But the questions still remains...what is that particular WILL of God, it's only sure WAY and the detailed REQUIREMENTS that man should identify with?

There's 2 ways to approach this problem.
1) Process of elimination: Slowly eliminate the churches that fall short "somewhere" eventually leaving one.
2) Find out which is the WAY thereby eliminating the pseudo-Christian faiths.

The question is, since most of the contradicting faiths claim revelation from the Holy Spirit, by what standard do you determine that a particular denomination/theological thought is wrong?

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by ndigila

There's 2 ways to approach this problem.
1) Process of elimination: Slowly eliminate the churches that fall short "somewhere" eventually leaving one.

This is the process that I had started, and I really thought that arguing from a point of our common understanding, then all churches that do not support that understanding are actually against one known biblical truth. The bible is clear that there is one God, one Lord, one Spirit, one faith, and one body. Eph 4:4-6 "There is one body and one Spirit - just as you were called to one hope when you were called - one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

2) Find out which is the WAY thereby eliminating the pseudo-Christian faiths.

The question is, since most of the contradicting faiths claim revelation from the Holy Spirit, by what standard do you determine that a particular denomination/theological thought is wrong?

This second way of dealing with the question is a bit tricky. Personally I had to go throug a similar experience when I became a believer, and maybe a hint from the experience might help me support my proposal for a way forward.

I was atheist up to when I finished high school. When I realized that atheism does not make sense to me due to numerous unexplainable realities, I decided to believe in the existence of God. This was ratified when one day a group of evangelists came to our house to preach salvation. I accepted their preaching and joined their fellowship.

I never got peace of mind when what we are now discussing struck me. I could not rationalise how one God could agree to numerous conflicting beliefs yet they claimed to be worshiping the same God. I decided to get onto my knees, prayed and took my bible for study.

I compared various churches and their teachings to what were simple and clear bible statements, knocked many of them out, and when I was left with three, I took bible lessons from them to undertand why they believe in what they do. I finally was left with one, and though I never attend church anymore, this is the church so far I find consistent in its teachings.

My proposal therefore is that we identify few areas that there are outright conflicting views, and with logical analysis to bible verses, we eliminate churches that are not teaching what the bible is saying according to the concepts identified.

[t.D.A.]

Originally Posted by ndigila

How do you deal with the Bible verse that says that the church is the pillar and ground of truth?

The church/ the body of christ is comprised of believers wherever they worship. This is the pillar of truth as opposed to an institution or a building or place. If you all worship at home or worship together under a tree, that is still the church / the body of christ as per my understanding.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

My proposal therefore is that we identify few areas that there are outright conflicting views, and with logical analysis to bible verses, we eliminate churches that are not teaching what the bible is saying according to the concepts identified.

Issues such as these
1) Is baptism necessary for salvation or not? Should infants be baptised or not?
2) Are spiritual gifts (esp Speaking in tongues and prophecy) in operation today? If they are, are they as common as Charismatics manifest them to be?
3) Arminianism vs Calvinism, which includes,
Can you lose your savation or not?
Free will vs predestination
Conditional vs unconditional election.
4) Whether communion is the body and blood of Christ or is it just symbolic?
5) Covenant Theology vs Dispensationalism
6) Rapture (whether it will happen or not), if it will, will it happen before or during or after the tribulation?
7) Saturday vs Sunday worship
8) Are works necessary for salvation? (The issue of James 2:14-26)
9) The Trinity. One God manifesting in 3 different ways vs One God in Three different persons.

These are the main issues I see as the differences between denominations. The only problem with your proposal is you can make an extremely powerful scriptural argument for opposing views, depending on which approach you use to interpret and analyze scripture, and many of the denominations that exist, have been formed by trying to find a compromise between 2 opposing views.

The way I see things is that since abandoning church tradition is what put us into this mess, then abandoning church tradition shouldn't have happened in the first place.