[grip_daddy]

The proponents of an historical view in the expository of Jesus' narration of Luke 16:19-31, wherein is placed that both the rich man and Lazarus were real historic figures who lived their lives as depicted in the story as told elevate their arguments to apply the Abraham's bosom and hell to be real. This principle application of the events would mean that everything should be literaturaly accepted.

In this view therefore, principle words used in the expression of the narrative need literal understanding. Some of these words would include; hade (translated also as hell), flame, tongue, finger, bosom, and torment.

Literal meaning of hade would signify places where the dead collect when buried. In essence it was a descriptive word depicting darkness, invisibility, or unseen.

The flame also translated as fire as used in the story must just be seen in its physical sense, with its ability to burn. The other terms signify that the involved persons possessed physical attributes that we literary understand.

In view of the above paragraphs, it is important to expose contradictions in literary understanding the narrative. One major contradiction is contained in the rich man's request. Despite being tormented in the flame, he only need to cool his tongue with a drop of water from Lazarus finger. At the same time, his ability to open his mouth and speech production from throat have not been impaired. The non changing form in body structure would be explained as God's ordained means to maximise torment on the once troublesome sinner, but the request for a water drop remains illogical. This suggests an impossibility for a literal flame to burn a literal body, and a tongue that can still talk while in torment.

The transformation of senses immediately after death alleges a pleasurable relaxation on the part of Abraham and Lazarus (and the rest of the righteous dead) watching the tormented man complain.

Are they enjoying the site of tormenting sinners in the very manner evil men celebrate torment and torture of fellow humans while still here on earth? Meaning that the actualization of beyond death life removes or substitutes basic emotions, feelings and thoughts of godliness, sympathy, emphathy and sorrow to hard, heartless, and care free mentality that rejoices in paradise despite the visibility of real, physical beings forever tormenting but never burning in hell?

That actually "unseen" hell can be visualized from the other world despite its literal meaning? This picture is not justifiable to me.

If it is not entirely literal, then water, tongue and finger in this narrative could have different meanings, which would create reasons for applying interpretations solely meant for parables.

[fiery_preacher]

After reading through various scripture texts in the OT and NT it seems that man is made up of three distinct parts that is body, soul, and spirit. The body is made up of flesh and can be touched. The soul forms the basic thought patterns and directs one’s functions. The spirit is in direct relationship with the Lord.

Ok Lets exclude the body from the discussion because its pretty easy to figure out,the daunting task is to explain the difference between soul and spirit as we understand it.

The word soul originated from a hebrew word 'nephesh' which literally means "life" it is also used for animals like in (Gen 1:20-24) .The Hebrew texts denotes the spirit as "ruach" and refers to it as only the immaterial part of man (Num 16:22).

The New testament was largely writen inn greek,and the soul originated from the word 'psyche' that means thoughts or emotions and the spirit 'pneuma' which means breath.

The book of hebrews helps to expound the difference by describing the word of God as any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit..." .

So we can say grip is a soul makes you different from jasakwa,atlian,ndigila,young ben who are also souls.The soul is how you relate to others and how you understand yourself. The spirit is how you relate to God.The spirit is part of the soul, much like the mind is part of the soul. It is the soul, though, that comprises who you are.

Animals don't have a spirit per se- they don't seek God.

Plants have a body, animals have a body and soul (they are capable of relating to man and other animals), but only man has a spirit.


Both the soul and spirit pass when man dies, thus you will be recognizable as Grip in the coming resurrection (ref Matt 17:3) and you will as a believer forever be able to fellowship with God. You will be given a new body (1 Cor 15:51-55), but you will be you.

[fiery_preacher]

One major contradiction is contained in the rich man's request. Despite being tormented in the flame, he only need to cool his tongue with a drop of water from Lazarus finger. At the same time, his ability to open his mouth and speech production from throat have not been impaired.

The story is real grip, very real. With the story Jesus wanted to expain what used to happen to a person after death before the concept of grace set in. The reason why the rich man has feelings is because he is a soul. When he died his body was buried, his spirit went back to his creator and his soul went to hell. As pointed out before the soul is the immaterial emotional part of a person. The soul is our heart (emotion), mind (thoughts) and our will. So grip when a person dies depending on whether they go to heaven or Hell they are souls.

[fiery_preacher]

Grip said -This suggests impossibility for a literal flame to burn a literal body, and a tongue that can still talk while in torment.

Grip the fact the the soul is different from the body but has feelings can support the phenomenon. It simply means that the soul will burn and not be incinerated, hell is a place for torment, so unlike the earthly body that vaporizes in contact with heat, the soul only experiences the tormenting stimulus of heat but unlike the body it doesn’t respond physically only emotionally.

Grip said - Are they enjoying the site of tormenting sinners in the very manner evil men celebrate torment and torture of fellow humans while still here on earth?

Grip, these are people who have disobeyed the way of Truth. If there was no system of accountability, judgement and purnishment and assuming people were left to do whatever they wished then there would be no life left to live. Violence and unspeakable sin would rule and then self destruction would follow. The creation would make no sense without the checks, and balances our creator has established.

"Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

[fiery_preacher]

Grip said - Meaning that the actualization of beyond death life removes or substitutes basic emotions, feelings and thoughts of godliness, sympathy, empathy and sorrow to hard, heartless, and care free mentality that rejoices in paradise despite the visibility of real, physical beings forever tormenting but never burning in hell?

Grip there is no excuse for the people who do or will burn in Hell, where the law failed God sent Jesus through whom only faith is sufficient to bring salvation not by works but grace. Imagine God is asking man to believe in Jesus so that he can save them from the coming Judgment. If beyond this people continue in sins, rebellion, blasphemy, violence, sexual immorality what else would you say or do? Wouldn’t you act to save the few obedient? Let me ask you a question, what is the Kenya army doing in m.t. elgon? They are clearing the bandits who lived in violence killing and maiming people.right? Now if human beings know how to purge crime and violence from the law abiders, why are they astonished by a system of restoration far superior in justice?

Grip said - That actually "unseen" hell can be visualized from the other world despite its literal meaning? This picture is not justifiable to me.

Hell is real grip daddy,no jokes, Hell is a place of constant agony and is set aside for Satan and all of those who reject Jesus Christ. No person on earth would willingly walk into hell. But, unfortunately, so many people are doing just that. In the face of truth and warnings, they continue to live in denial and are walking straight into Hell.

[fiery_preacher]

Grip said - If it is not entirely literal, then water, tongue and finger in this narrative could have different meanings, which would create reasons for applying interpretations solely meant for parables.

I disagree grip,its no parable,hell is real,from genesis to revelation of hell one thing is spoke.a place of torment..a buring furnace..a place of fearful howlings, weeping and gnashing of teeth"
Matthew 18:8-9 describes the eternal fire of Hell. Matthew 3:12 speaks of unquenchable fire. And Revelation 20 poignantly describes the lake of burning sulfur and place of perpetual torment

[grip_daddy]

The story is real grip, very real. With the story Jesus wanted to expain what used to happen to a person after death before

The story is not said anywhere to be real. The background information of the story does not bring any hint to the necessity to expound into the forms those who are dead take. The closing statement of the story hints to a totally different reason why it was told.

The choice of the name Lazarus, and the rich man gives further insight as to the lessons that were being taught.

Since there are evidences that deeper lessons exist in the story, but no hint whatsoever to its reality, taking the story as real therefore remains pure human speculation.

[grip_daddy]

I disagree grip,its no parable,hell is real,from genesis to revelation of hell one thing is spoke.a place of torment..a buring furnace..a place of fearful howlings, weeping and gnashing of teeth"
Matthew 18:8-9 describes the eternal fire of Hell. Matthew 3:12 speaks of unquenchable fire. And Revelation 20 poignantly describes the lake of burning sulfur and place of perpetual torment

The hell you have described above is awaiting the judgment day when Satan and his angels, including those who became his followers will be thrown in hell. This will happen after the one thousand years; when after Satan has been chained in the bottomless pit, he will be released to deceive Gog and Magog again to go and concur the New Jerusalem. It will be during this deception that God will release fire from His finger to consume Satan and his followers forever and ever and ever. It will be during this time that there will be wailing, and torment, and gnashing of teeth.

Saying that sinful human beings go to hell when they are buried shows one bias on the part of God. Why must humans suffer more than the devil himself? Are we more of sinners that others?

If for example Cain is already in hell, and someone who dies today joins him (Hitler for example), so it means being born those early days was a disadvantage? You have been in torment for thousand and thousand of years just because you commited a single sin of refusing to offer animal sacrifice, killing your brother in turn; whereas Hitler, someone who killed millions of humans, tortured some, drunk blood, when he dies, suffers less?

One thing I will never understand is why resurrect a soul already in hell and then those who had not died at Jesus second coming now be given equal treatment as them.

Another thing, why must the righteous wait until the dead in Christ are resurrected first before they are taken together to join Christ in the clouds? The bible says that the righteous will be rewarded each according to his own works, yet if some are already in heaven, and another struggle so hard to do even greater things than those Christ did, he is rewarded only at second coming (those who will be alive then).

Soul living after death does not make sense, after all God said that the soul that sins shall surely die. See Eze 18:4,20.

[fiery_preacher]

Saying that sinful human beings go to hell when they are buried shows one bias on the part of God. Why must humans suffer more than the devil himself? Are we more of sinners that others?

Grip the lake of fire is reserved for the devil and his followers, it is the eventual resting place for those who rebel against the word of God. The torment of the lake of fire sounds more severe but however you put it the people had a chance to repent, they heard the word being preached. To understand what happens to nonbelievers after they die, we go to Revelation 20:11-15 which describes the Great White Throne judgment. Here takes place the opening of the books and “the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” The books contain all the thoughts and deeds of those being judged, and we know from Romans 3:20 that “by the works of the Law is no flesh justified.” Therefore, all who are judged by their works and thoughts are condemned to hell

If for example Cain is already in hell, and someone who dies today joins him (Hitler for example), so it means being born those early days was a disadvantage?

I don’t see much difference grip we don’t know how time behaves under the factors in hell. If Hitler is in hell he has to wait till the last judgment before being cast into the lake of fire. May that’s the way things work.
And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28.

You have been in torment for thousand and thousand of years just because you commited a single sin of refusing to offer animal sacrifice, killing your brother in turn; whereas Hitler, someone who killed millions of humans, tortured some, drunk blood, when he dies, suffers less?

While the idea of a second chance for salvation is appealing, the Bible is clear that death is the end of all chances. Hebrews 9:27 tells us that we die, and then face judgment. So, as long as a person is alive, he has a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. chance to accept Christ and be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 16:31). Once a person dies, there are no more chances. The idea of purgatory, a place where people go after death to pay for their sins, has no biblical basis, but is rather a tradition of the Roman Catholic Church.
All have sin and fall short of the glory, a sin is a sin that is why repentance is so important, in fact daily repentance. We must observe righteousness and obedience.

One thing I will never understand is why resurrect a soul already in hell and then those who had not died at Jesus second coming now be given equal treatment as them.

Because man ages and dies, man cannot live that long on earth, that is why there is a place prepared for waiting.


Another thing, why must the righteous wait until the dead in Christ are resurrected first before they are taken together to join Christ in the clouds?

A hard question, but my guess is that the souls of the dead in Christ will travel same train with the Lord as he comes to fulfill his promise.

The bible says that the righteous will be rewarded each according to his own works, yet if some are already in heaven, and another struggle so hard to do even greater things than those Christ did, he is rewarded only at second coming (those who will be alive then).

The rewards for the righteous shall be given after the mercy seat judgement at Jesus second coming. So the believers who die before that time will only wait but in a good place described in John 14.2 - “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

Soul living after death does not make sense, after all God said that the soul that sins shall surely die. See( Eze 18:4,20.)

The death described here is the opposite of eternal life and same as second death described in revelation; this describes the eternal separation of the souls of the sinners from God.
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power."

[grip_daddy]

Grip the lake of fire is reserved for the devil and his followers, it is the eventual resting place for those who rebel against the word of God. The torment of the lake of fire sounds more severe but however you put it the people had a chance to repent, they heard the word being preached. To understand what happens to nonbelievers after they die, we go to Revelation 20:11-15 which describes the Great White Throne judgment. Here takes place the opening of the books and “the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” The books contain all the thoughts and deeds of those being judged, and we know from Romans 3:20 that “by the works of the Law is no flesh justified.” Therefore, all who are judged by their works and thoughts are condemned to hell

The lake of fire will come from the finger of God after the one thousand years. It is not the flame in the rich man's case. Again, the lake of fire is death, for the bible writes, "The lake of fire is the second death." Rev 20:14



I don’t see much difference grip we don’t know how time behaves under the factors in hell. If Hitler is in hell he has to wait till the last judgment before being cast into the lake of fire. May that’s the way things work.
And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28.

Here you contradict the notion that every bit of the Lazarus and the rich man's story is entirely literal. If there is any hidden meaning to that story, then it was a parable. The story clearly states that the rich man died, was buried and went in hell. Lazarus died and was carried by angels to Abraham's bosom. Your explanation below contradict this further.



While the idea of a second chance for salvation is appealing, the Bible is clear that death is the end of all chances. Hebrews 9:27 tells us that we die, and then face judgment. So, as long as a person is alive, he has a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. chance to accept Christ and be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 16:31). Once a person dies, there are no more chances. The idea of purgatory, a place where people go after death to pay for their sins, has no biblical basis, but is rather a tradition of the Roman Catholic Church.
All have sin and fall short of the glory, a sin is a sin that is why repentance is so important, in fact daily repentance. We must observe righteousness and obedience.

Our God is a God of justice. And what you are saying that purgatory has no biblical basis is what I called further contradictions. If the rich man was in hell already being tormented, why call it not paying for his sins? Then he will resurrect again for further punishment? This is not logical at all.

Also note that judgment of the dead will take place after the one thousand years. So going to hell before judgment is not biblical.

Because man ages and dies, man cannot live that long on earth, that is why there is a place prepared for waiting.


The place for waiting is the grave. You are dead asleep in the grave waiting for resurrection. If you are righteous, you will resurrect at the second coming of Christ, and go with Him to the place He prepared. If you were a sinner, you will wait until after the one thousand years, be judged, and then thrown into the everlasting fire.


A hard question, but my guess is that the souls of the dead in Christ will travel same train with the Lord as he comes to fulfill his promise.

The souls have hands, brain, feelings, knowledge, feet, everything a body has. Why come back for some other body? The soul as described in the rich man's story again does not sound literal if viewed in the mirror of resurrection. Who will Jesus come for the second time if they are already with him? Another argument that does not make sense.



The rewards for the righteous shall be given after the mercy seat judgement at Jesus second coming. So the believers who die before that time will only wait but in a good place described in John 14.2 - “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 “If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also .

Note the place I have put in bold above. Jesus will have to come again for them to go to the place they have been prepared. They dont join Him at death, or wait somewhere watching tormenting sinner anguishing in flames. They sleep in death, wait for the trumpet call, they are resurrected, go with Jesus who has come to receive them, then they are taken to the place Jesus went to prepare.



The death described here is the opposite of eternal life and same as second death described in revelation; this describes the eternal separation of the souls of the sinners from God.
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power."[/quote]

The second death is the lake of fire. As I said above, death is death and not another form of life. They that will take part in the first resurrection will go with Jesus to the place prepared for them. The rest will wait until after the devil is released from the bottomless pit, resurrected and taken lake of fire.