[jasakwa]

What do you mean by, the spirit lives beyond death and how?

Grip check the verse below for insight,the spirit belongs to the creator,and upon death it leaves the body.From the passage its obvious that the two fellaz existed beyond death but in different forms.The fact that they had memory of what happened in previous life outlines the essence of the soul.
Luke 16:19-31 (New International Version)

The Rich Man and Lazarus
"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

Grip check out this other verse;

It explains the difference between the soul and spirit.

Heb 4:12
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
NASB

[grip_daddy]

Jasakwa I like your analogy of the robot, it fits well with my computer analogy, though with one fundamental difference:

The data processor you are equating the soul to is also made of physical parts (silicon based switches pressed on some conductor). This will equal our brain.

You say that the soul does the unique specific reasoning as attributed to personality of Grip, but biologically we understand the process of information processing in the brain, the genetic (simple DNA molecules that are made of four unique proteinous bases) information as encoded by DNA's molecular structure that influences the information processing, hormonal balancing, and reaction mechanisms to environmental changes.

The storage of information in the brain (memory) is explained by cellular displacement, excitement, and charges. These cells are made of physical molecules from physical elements like carbon, nitrogen and phosphorous. They are what make us conscious just as any other animal.

The difference between me and the animal is on the genetic structure due to differing number of chromosomes, the DNA coding and the brain size. But just as an animal has a life giving spirit, so do I. The bible says, "I also thought, 'As for men, God tests them so that they see that they are like the animals. Man's fate is like that of animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same [spirit]; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of animal goes down into the earth?'" Ecc 3:18-21.

In context of the above verse it would be realized that the life giving spirit is NOT specific to any individual. You will note that just as the battery that powers your robot can power another robot or a watch or a spot light, so the spirit that gives life to the man can give life to the animal.

In saying that the spirit can feel pain outside the body (Lazarus in the parable), or be able to talk from some place in paradise (Abraham), it would make no sense to have our physical bodies because that means that I am actually the spirit. If the spirit of Abraham was recognised by the spirit of Lazarus to be Abraham, then Abraham's body was not him. So it means this body of ours is inconsequential for even after death, we will be able to have knowledge, we will be able to feel pain, to reason and speak logic. This notion contradicts these three verses: "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate, and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.""Whatever your your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." Ecc 9:5,6,10

In the journey to go and resurrect another Lazarus, Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep. Equating death to sleep here implies that there is no part of Lazarus that was somewhere actively involved in thinking, planning, celebrating or enjoying. So death can be seen as sleep in away (the rest part of it).

Another question (before I give my understanding to the parable you mentioned above), what will be the necessity to resurrect Lazarus at the end time when actually he already knows his evil (he asked Abraham to send messages to his relatives to refrain from evil), and also was already undergoing punishment? The bible says that the unrighteous will resurrect to go to eternal punishment.

[jasakwa]

In saying that the spirit can feel pain outside the body (Lazarus in the parable), or be able to talk from some place in paradise (Abraham), it would make no sense to have our physical bodies because that means that I am actually the spirit. If the spirit of Abraham was recognised by the spirit of Lazarus to be Abraham, then Abraham's body was not him.

grip i agree with you on one thing that abraham was not in the earthly body because his body died and was burried on earth,so in whatever form he was in it was either a spirit or soul.You have stimulated my desire to learn more about the difference between a soul and spirit.Bear with me for going into robotics again,you see with the modern technology man is able to implant a micro cheap inside a robot's micro-processor,and the chip can record all data,which can be retrieved through another application or source.This is what happens with humans.The spirit seem to have that ability to go with the memory of what happened in the physical body.That how Lazarus was able to remember his earthly encounter with the rich man.
Now lets go back to luke 16:27

"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

See the richman whose name we were not told is asking abraham to send Lazarus to his father's house to preach to his brothers so that they don't end up in hell.This answers part of your questions..memory..his form of his existence reveals that he can remember he had brothers,but let us be careful not to rush into conclusions,the richman can remember what happened before he left the earth but we are not told if he is able to see what was going on after he departed.So you are right the life form we take after death doesn't terminate our ability to feel,remember and reason.

This notion contradicts these three verses: "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate, and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.""Whatever your your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." Ecc 9:5,6,10

Well grip,i think it doesn't.Solomon the writer of Ecc was speaking from an earthly perspective not heavenly.Because while we live on earth we know we will die isn't it? and after death there is nothing you can gain as a reward for your actions because your physical being is dead,can't work,can't help out,can't give charity,can't procreate and he goes on to say their memory is forgoten,mark you this word can be used to mean "memory of them" no one remembers them and this is so common,people are often forgoten once they die because they are nolonger part of our daily activities and thast why we have comemorations.Their love,hate and other emotions also have been forgoten by the people they left behind..so you see the writer(Solomon) was speaking from an earthly perspective.

[jasakwa]

In the journey to go and resurrect another Lazarus, Jesus said that Lazarus was asleep. Equating death to sleep here implies that there is no part of Lazarus that was somewhere actively involved in thinking, planning, celebrating or enjoying. So death can be seen as sleep in away (the rest part of it).

Grip comeon from Jesus perspective physical death is just something temporary.It like switching the batteries of a machine off.He had the power to command the spirit of such a person to come back and power them to life.But you have to realise that such people still had to die later,because their bodies were not transformed but remained earthly therefore mortal.The ressurection spoken by Jesus and which he went through is completely differnt thing,the body has to be tranformed to Immortal.

Another question (before I give my understanding to the parable you mentioned above), what will be the necessity to resurrect Lazarus at the end time when actually he already knows his evil (he asked Abraham to send messages to his relatives to refrain from evil), and also was already undergoing punishment? The bible says that the unrighteous will resurrect to go to eternal punishment.

Allow me to correct you grip,the guy who asked abraham for favor was the richman and not lazarus.

Ressurection will be necessary because final Judgement has to take place.The accounts of Judgement will be based on the words and actions of men and women while living on earth.By that time some people will be in hell while others will be in heaven.Some people will by that time have died while others will be living on earth.Because all these people will be required to give an account of their actions,they will need a level ground to advance their litigation because the judgement day will come unannounced.For example grip you be in heaven and has a case with two people one in hell and the other still living,how can the case be held fairly unless you both share a common platform.

[grip_daddy]

Jasakwa I will not buy your explanation that Solomon was speaking from earthly perspective. All scriptures are inspired by God and should be worthy not only for knowing the truth, but also for establishing doctrine. 2 Tim 3:16. I will come to this later.

So you are actually saying that God sends dead people to hell before they are judged? You are also saying that after being in hell for years, they will be resurrected again for the sake of others who were still on earth for reasons of some level ground, then be given punishment each according to his own works?

All manner of punishment, judgement, reward the bible clearly pushes until after the second coming of Christ. Just a quick question, if indeed the souls have memory, able to talk, hear, feel pain, feel joy, be in hell, be in paradise, etc, what is the need of the body, why the second coming?

Jesus does not have to come to resurrect people who are already in paradise, judge them then give them rewards or punishment if they were already in heaven or paradise. Also imaging Jesus recalling a spirit in paradise to come and power a body to face further human suffering.

To tell you the truth, if Jesus was indeed raising people from the dead, recalling them to suffer human pains, for the sake to display His power, leaves a lot to be desired.

[grip_daddy]

Before I give the background information as to my understanding of the rich man vs Lazarus parable, I would want to give my biblical understanding of the dead.

As explained in my first post, the human existence is made of two basic elements; the body that contain all the arrangements of physical elements in molecular structures aggregated together into buildup of cells, the cells arranged to tissues, then organs then the entire human body. This particular body formation determines the uniqueness of the individual when hereditary ability inherent in the very cellular arrangements and construction are viewed either in unity or singularly which might be cellular or elemental.

In the study of human anatomy (histology etc), and physiology, characteristics that differentiate individuality are clearly explained genetically, behavioral specificity seen hormonally, and memory bank understood as cellular network in the nervous system.

All these anatomical arrangements of elemental and molecular structure are seen as intact in a dead person. This dead person, what defines him as dead, biologically is attributed to a failure to one of the body organs or system e.g. the heart, the brain, or any other.

When reasoned from the spiritual perspective, the stage when death is declared can only be reached when the life giving spirit (or power or breath) is taken away by God. This life giving power, is not life. It is not knowledgeable, neither is it emotional. It is not the individual.

In defining the soul, the bible clearly states that, "God formed the man from the dust of the ground". Gen 2:7 Up to this point, the bible already calls the formed body as man. Though man was lifeless, his identity is already determined, and therefore for man to have a life God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being". In KJV, it is recorded that "man became a living soul."

In the use of the word living soul, it therefore implies that a dead man becomes a dead being, or a dead soul. The bible in the book of Ezekiel says, "For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son-both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die." Eze 18:4. Also see vs 20. Here God himself states that the soul that sins shall die, not survive the body. God has the power to destroy the soul that sins, and he will do that after the second coming of Christ. Meanwhile, the soul, whether good or evil, sleeps in death.

To undertand that the soul does not know anything at death, David wrote in Psalms 6:5 that no one remembers God when dead. Job had this to say, "But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. As waters disappear from the sea or a river bed becomes parched and dry, so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep." Job 14:10-12.

Again, in saying that man torments in hell awaiting resurrection to torment again is in contradiction to the well outlined punishment for sin. Paul states that "the wages of sin is death" not some torments in hell. And this is the eternal death, not the temporal death otherwise called sleep. Romans 6:23. This is emphasised in Rev 16:3 where John records that, "the second angel poured out his vial on the sea; and turned into blood like that of a dead man, and every living soul died". Note the use of the word soul even for living things in the sea.

Jesus said that, "whoever believes in the Son has life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him". John 3:36. Death cannot be transformation into another form of life, but it is just that, DEATH.

[bible_reader]

I think the spirit is the breath and belongs to God.When a person dies the spirit goes back to God,the soul is the one that goes to either heaven or hell depending on the person's actions while he or she lived .Now the soul holds the part that has memory,emotions and feeling.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

To undertand that the soul does not know anything at death, David wrote in Psalms 6:5 that no one remembers God when dead. Job had this to say, "But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. As waters disappear from the sea or a river bed becomes parched and dry, so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep." Job 14:10-12.

Grip, you have to take into account that since Jesus conquered death, the state of the dead changed. Consider Paul's words in Phillipians 1:22-24
But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you

Paul is struggling between his longing to be with Christ and his concern for the church. If Paul viewed death the way you do, those statements would be viewed as an insult because he'd essentially be saying "I'm torn between going into an unconscious state for an unknown period of time and staying here and caring for you."

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by bible_reader

I think the spirit is the breath and belongs to God.When a person dies the spirit goes back to God,the soul is the one that goes to either heaven or hell depending on the person's actions while he or she lived .Now the soul holds the part that has memory,emotions and feeling.

Biologically we understand how memory is stored in the human brain, how glandular cells are stimulated to secret hormones, and how these hormones in turn affect the feeling in human beings depending on the circumstances.

Attributing physical body reactions to spiritual existence with no biblical barking is heretic. I would like some questions to be answered:

1. Is multiple punishment concept a doctrine? That is a sinner is punished more than once, the first sound before judgment?

2. Is death by definition not death but a relocation to another life form? Soul life (or spirit for that matter).

3. Why did Paul say that our hope is ONLY in the resurrection of Jesus, which if is a heresy then our faith is doomed yet our souls at death already is with Him in paradise?

4. If a sinner who is already dead can admit his guilt to a righteous dead man, then what is the point of this hope in the second coming for the purpose of punishing even the dead sinners (they will be resurrected again) yet all could simply die and meet in wherever souls meet to see their past deeds?

5. Those that Jesus resurrected as miracles (e.g. Lazarus), were they already in paradise enjoying? If yes so Jesus decided to bring them back to this tormenting life?

6. Were all the verses (In Psalms, Job, Ezekiel, Ecclesiastes, John, Acts etc) that speak of dead souls, or no life immediately after death not inspired by Holy Ghost?

7. Is there no better understanding of the rich man vs Lazarus parable consistent with teachings that death is a mere sleep? Taking note on why the parable was said, the 'mind talk' of the audience, and the ending of the parable speaks something deeper.

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by ndigila

Grip, you have to take into account that since Jesus conquered death, the state of the dead changed. Consider Paul's words in Phillipians 1:22-24
But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you

Paul is struggling between his longing to be with Christ and his concern for the church. If Paul viewed death the way you do, those statements would be viewed as an insult because he'd essentially be saying "I'm torn between going into an unconscious state for an unknown period of time and staying here and caring for you."

What if you argued that sleeping unconsciously in Christ (as a rest, or dead asleep, without knowledge nor reason, nor anything) means that a dead man knows entirely nothing. That at resurrection, you only realize that there is no time lapse between when you died and when you have resurrected?

Paul mental status can be understood to mean that immediately a man is dead, he will only know (be conscious of) the second coming; that even as Adam died thousand of year back, to him it will seem only a few seconds because after all he was dead, and his immediate memory, like someone who awakes from sleep, will be his last moments whe he was just dying. Paul statement in this verse can be explained on the same light, and I would want to say that he was reasoning as I have stated above.