[fiery_preacher]

Fiery_Preacher,

your verse above is a specific reference regarding sacrificing your children to Molech. It doesn't say anywhere not to give your children to Jehovah! Please get that difference. Just like god says do not pray to Baal. That doesn't mean you shouldn't pray to Jehovah!!!!!

Now using your way of reasoning i would be correct to say that God never told israelites to offer their children to him.If he abhored the people offering children to molech and wanted them to offer to him he would have mentiond it.In giving the stern instruction God was protecting his people from strange cultures of the places they passed through on their way to the promised land ,these were the amonites.


It's one thing to make a dumb vow to god, it's another thing for him to accept it. Ama are you saying that the almighty god accepts stupid foolish vows?

The story doesn't potray God as being stupid but Jephthah.God is consistent in teaching people to honor vows.Don't make a vow you cannot honor,you'd rather not make any.God favored him in winning the war but never asked him for a reward,yet he tested God by making such a vow. Our vows to God should not be made as a purchase of a favor, but rather to express gratitude to God. We need to be sure in making vows to avoid entangling ourselves into a difficult position. He on his own will rushed to make a vow about an event he had no knowledge of.Am sure had he known it would be his daughter he would have changed his mind.

(Numbers 30:1-2) Moses said to the heads of the tribes of Israel: "This is what the LORD commands: When a man makes a vow to the LORD or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said.


That is absolute Christian apologetic garbage, and you know it. He burnt her as an offering to god. Here is the vow he made to god:

You must consider the traditions and laws of the people in jephthah's time.(Leviticus 22:18-19) "Speak to Aaron and his sons and to all the Israelites and say to them: 'If any of you—either an Israelite or an alien living in Israel—presents a gift for a burnt offering to the LORD, either to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, you must present a male without defect from the cattle, sheep or goats in order that it may be accepted on your behalf.

My point is God never accepted human sacrifice,burnt offering was a word used for dedication to God.Take for example story of samuel in 1samuel 1,his mother vowed to God that she will give him his son,and where was that?at shiloh,a place where people went to offer burnt sacrifices.For human's it was not killing but making them permanent servants of the Lord.


And here is what he did to her after she came from 2 months of moaning the fact that she'd die a virgin:

She moaned about remaining a virgin which meant not being married,marriage was something associated with prestige.Just ask yourself this simple question,why was she lamenting about not getting married and not her death?The reason is simple she wasn't going to die,but to remain unmarried.

His vow was to sacrifice her as a burnt offering to god, and he did as his vow said! Please don't try to bring in another remix, ati she remained a virgin forever serving god in his temples. It doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible, so I don't know why you're postulating it!

She was not sacrificed,she was offered as a burnt offering,whih in israel those days meant a lifetime service in the temple.That is what levites did,they served permanently in the temple.just read the verses below,and you will see that there were no human killings for sacrifice,only animals,human's(first born males) were just dedicated and the levites represented them.The may be yu will ask what role such dedicated women played in the temples?well they were singers,
"You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

The lament for the daughter is about not marrying NOT about not living,it makes me wonder if some kind of religious celibacy is not in view. Verse 39 calls his action a 'vow'. Lev 27.28 ,allowed people to be given over the Lord, who became servants of the Priests. As devoted to the Lord's service, some of them probably did NOT marry.

Ezra 2:64-65:
The whole assembly together was forty-two thousand three hundred and sixty, besides their male and female servants, of whom there were seven thousand three hundred thirty-seven; and they had two hundred male and female singers.



(Numbers 3:13 NSB) because every firstborn is mine. The day I killed every firstborn male in Egypt, I set apart as holy every firstborn in Israel, whether human or animal. They will be mine. I am Jehovah.”

Numbers 3:41 NSB) “I am Jehovah. Take the Levites for me to be substitutes for all firstborn Israelites. Also take the animals of the Levites to be substitutes for all firstborn animals of the Israelites.”

[fiery_preacher]

I know that. Did you even read - or understand - what I wrote? My point is, god would not test you by asking you to do anything which he doesn't agree with. I'm sure we all agree with that. The fact that he then tested Abraham by asking him to kill his son means that human sacrifice is something he does agree with!

God has statutes and rules,if he entertained human sacrifice he would have openly and directly asked his people to do it.In the case of isaac story God knew how long abraham had waited for a son,and how much he valued his only blood son.Isaac was probably the most valued thing in abraham's personal assets.Abraham moved through faith,and obedience,he never questioned God's motives and he reckoned that God was more than able to give him back his son.

You are questioning why God chose burnt offering as method of testing abraham's faith.Well i cannot speak on God's behalf why he chose this way of test,but one thing i know is that he had a ram in place for abraham,this to me shows that God wanted abraham to offer the ram not isaac.Otherwise he wouldn't have planned for the ram to appear.

Then the father lifted high his trembling hand, holding the knife. Suddenly a voice from heaven called out, “Abraham! Abraham!” “Here I am,” he replied. “Do not do anything. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from Me your son, your only son.” There in the thicket Abraham saw a ram, and sacrificed it as a burnt offering on the altar instead of his son.

[ATLian]

Fiery_Preacher,

I must say I give you props for your indefatigable efforts in defending the indefensible acts of a cruel god.


If he abhored the people offering children to molech and wanted them to offer to him he would have mentiond it.

There are very many things that god told his people never to do for any god apart from him. This is but an example. God loved it when burnt offerings of male bulls were made to him, ama when people sang hymn of praise in his name. But he was 100% against these same exact things being done for another god. He could have said "never make any human sacrifices to me or Molech", but he only mentioned Molech.



The story doesn't potray God as being stupid but Jephthah.God is consistent in teaching people to honor vows.

Then why did god accept the stupid vow? Again, if Jephthah had vowed to god "If you help me defeat the Amonnites, I will have gay sex with the first man I meet on my way home, then I will have an incestuous pedophilic threesome with my 2 infant virgin daughters when I get home", do you think god would have honored the vow? Do you think he would have helped him win the battle? Fack no. And that's because pedophilia, homosexual sex and adultery are sins in his eyes. The fact that he accepted this vow, knowing full well that it was the virgin daughter who would be sacrificed, means that he is pro human sacrifice!



If any of you—either an Israelite or an alien living in Israel—presents a gift for a burnt offering to the LORD, either to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, you must present a male without defect from the cattle, sheep or goats in order that it may be accepted on your behalf.

I don't understand the purpose of you pasting this verse. All this verse shows is that when sacrificing an animal to god, that animal must be male and must have no defects. It doesn't touch on human sacrifice at all.



My point is God never accepted human sacrifice,burnt offering was a word used for dedication to God.

You've got to be kidding me with what you wrote in red. Burnt offering, since you don't seem to know, is offering something to god by burning it! So when a human being is offered as a burnt offering, that unlucky being is roasted (hopefully after being killed) for god's glory! There is absolutely no ambiguity on this term.



She moaned about remaining a virgin which meant not being married,marriage was something associated with prestige.Just ask yourself this simple question,why was she lamenting about not getting married and not her death?

She was moaning the fact that she would die a virgin. Here is exactly what she told her father:

Judges 11:36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth;

And here is what preceeded out of his mouth:

Judges 11:30 - 31 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

In other words - sacrifice me as you promised god you would!

If you still insist that she was given to the church to serve the lord as a virgin forever, look at the last 2 verses in that chapter:

Judges 11:39-40 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel, That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.

Serving god is a glorious thing, worthy of praise and adoration for the person serving god. So why the heck would women of Israel go to lament and mourn for Jephthah's daughter if that's what she was doing? Also who mourns for people who are alive? Why was she moaning for 2 months if she was going to serve the lord, shouldn't she have been celebrating? Also we saw how in verse 36 Jephthah wept and moaned and tore his clothes when he saw his daughter. Why should he mourn if all she was doing was going to serve god? I think it's obvious Jephthah and his daughter were moaning her coming death, and the women of Israel made it an annual ritual to go and mourn her death!

And finally, I thought only men could serve god in those old days. No women were even allowed into the temple ama near the tabernacle!



She was not sacrificed,she was offered as a burnt offering,whih in israel those days meant a lifetime service in the temple.

Again you try tell us that burnt offering is not a literal meaning, but a figurative one meaning "a lifetime service in the temple". You got to be kidding, coz if you're serious, then you are stating that there are many "burnt offering" bulls and goats and rams that served a lifetime in the temple!

[grip_daddy]

I have tried to submit my post here but seemingly I cant. I have not given up just yet but will post an examination of sacrifices, promises and tests of fath.

[fiery_preacher]

God has very strict rules to his men about marrying women from other tribes, especially those who don't believe in him! They were there to be concubines, a polite word for sex toys or sex slaves.

To understand this passages you need to immerse your thoughts in the rules that used to apply in those days.The reality is that to win those wars ,one had to be ruthless,the battles were so cruel the soldiers had to be cleansed before returning to their houses.This war was about purnishing the medians.

The virgins captured during those wars were accepted because they could be married under the torah laws.There was no rule given to treat them as sex slaves.Spare us your intricate thoughts.
So what do the verses you just quoted have to do with god accepting 32 virgin girls as a human sacrifice?

Hell no,i keep teling you that there was no human sacrifices,the portion of given to the Lord belonged to the priests because they had no inheritance among the people.The animals,equipment of silver,gold,tin,bronze captured from enemy soldiers were divided according to fraction given to Moses by God.The women(virgins were to be married or serve as servants.)Those handed to the priest according to portion required served in the temples as singers.

[fiery_preacher]

There are very many things that god told his people never to do for any god apart from him. This is but an example. God loved it when burnt offerings of male bulls were made to him, ama when people sang hymn of praise in his name. But he was 100% against these same exact things being done for another god. He could have said "never make any human sacrifices to me or Molech", but he only mentioned Molech.

God made it clear in the 1st of the 10 comandments,that his people shall not worship other gods,and shall not offer sacrifice to them.Here your concern about offering animal sacrifices to other gods is covered well.

He could have said "never make any human sacrifices to me or Molech", but he only mentioned Molech.

Let me put it in perspective,in those days israelites were conquering new lands,and the people who dwelt there were practising strange traditions,God did not want his people to ape such norms.The canaanites were worshiping a god called molech,and offered their children as sacrifice.

So God's instruction to the israelites concerning molech and offering of children was specific and direct.Human sacrifices was not part of israelites tradition,and thats why he did not have to include his name.


The Lord spoke to Moses: 20:2 “You are to say to the Israelites, ‘Any man from the Israelites or from the foreigners who reside in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death; the people of the land must pelt him with stones. 20:3 I myself will set my face against that man and cut him off from the midst of his people, because he has given some of his children to Molech and thereby defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. 20:4 If, however, the people of the land shut their eyes to that man when he gives some of his children to Molech so that they do not put him to death, 20:5 I myself will set my face against that man and his clan.

Jeremiah32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Then why did god accept the stupid vow?

God accepted the vow to teach jephthah and others including our generation that we must not test God.The sacrifices of thanksgiving is all he wants from us.God is an ordainer but free will is ours,we take responsibility for our decisions.Let me remind you of king Solomon who when asked by God what he should be given chose wisdom and it pleased God so much that he gave him more than just that.

Again, if Jephthah had vowed to god "If you help me defeat the Amonnites, I will have gay sex with the first man I meet on my way home, then I will have an incestuous pedophilic threesome with my 2 infant virgin daughters when I get home", do you think god would have honored the vow?

God regards our ability to chose,and make choice expecially on our actions and words,we are autonomous when it comes to words and decisions.The correlation was between what Jeph will give to God,not what he will do,so this negates your question.jephs vow was not defined in action but offer.Your example on the contrary is based on an planned defined action(will have a gay sex and pedophilic sex).

Do you think he would have helped him win the battle? Fack no. And that's because pedophilia, homosexual sex and adultery are sins in his eyes. The fact that he accepted this vow, knowing full well that it was the virgin daughter who would be sacrificed, means that he is pro human sacrifice!

And it was not a sin for the daughter to be dedicated to work in the temple for a life-time.The agony for jeph was that she was his only child,and was not going to get married and have children.

The girl agony was that she ws to remain a virgin for life,no marriage,no children.

If any of you—either an Israelite or an alien living in Israel—presents a gift for a burnt offering to the LORD, either to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, you must present a male without defect from the cattle, sheep or goats in order that it may be accepted on your behalf.

I don't understand the purpose of you pasting this verse. All this verse shows is that when sacrificing an animal to god, that animal must be male and must have no defects. It doesn't touch on human sacrifice at all.

This verse was to show you that if human sacrifices was approved by God,it would have featured prominently.

Judges 11:36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth;

Let me ask you,how did the daughter know what her father had promised God even before he told her?

And here is what preceeded out of his mouth:

Judges 11:30 - 31 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

In other words - sacrifice me as you promised god you would!

You are rushing to conclusion here,offerings in those days were presented to the priests(levites).The priest would kill and burn an animal,but for human's they would be kept to work in the temples for the rest of their lives.

If you still insist that she was given to the church to serve the lord as a virgin forever, look at the last 2 verses in that chapter:

Judges 11:39-40 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel, That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.

There are so many other verses in the bible in which israelites gave tribute for remembrance,they remembered the action as a lesson for jeph's mistake,and not mourning.This was to teach generations to generations.Not that people at that time did not offer their children as dedication to God's service,but it was rare for an only child,and a daughter.

Serving god is a glorious thing, worthy of praise and adoration for the person serving god. So why the heck would women of Israel go to lament and mourn for Jephthah's daughter if that's what she was doing? Also who mourns for people who are alive? Why was she moaning for 2 months if she was going to serve the lord, shouldn't she have been celebrating? Also we saw how in verse 36 Jephthah wept and moaned and tore his clothes when he saw his daughter. Why should he mourn if all she was doing was going to serve god? I think it's obvious Jephthah and his daughter were moaning her coming death, and the women of Israel made it an annual ritual to go and mourn her death!

It was sad for her not to be married and have children like other girls,and also not being able to pass on seed to project her family's geneaology.It was an uncommon thing in israel during those days,the situation not just being an only daughter,but only child.

And finally, I thought only men could serve god in those old days. No women were even allowed into the temple ama near the tabernacle!

Women served as singers,women were able to consecrate themselves with the vow of a Nazarite (Num. 6:2), just like men. Women shared in the sacred meals and great annual feasts (Deut. 16:11,14);

[jasakwa]

I know that. Did you even read - or understand - what I wrote? My point is, god would not test you by asking you to do anything which he doesn't agree with. I'm sure we all agree with that. The fact that he then tested Abraham by asking him to kill his son means that human sacrifice is something he does agree with!

If i wanted to test if you trusted me enough i would ask you to give me the thing you treasure most,and that has got nothing to do with my interest in that thing,but how much you value it more than me.If God really agreed with human sacrifice i think he would have mentioned it clearly as a law or commandment.

[ATLian]

Fiery,

I give up with you. If god himself came down and told you that "yes, I love and accept human sacrifices", you'd still deny it.

Quick question: God drowned every human being apart from maybe 20. God burnt alive every person in Sodom and Gomorah. God killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the Bible. God shed a heck of a lot of innocent blood, including that of children. With that on the resume, why is it so shocking and repulsive to you that he accepts human sacrifices? That stuff to me is all the same - totally repugnant in all ways!

Also why do you doubt what the Bible states in Black and White only because it paints your god in a negative light? Like I wrote earlier, I'd understand if you just said "I have no idea why god did that jacked up thing!"



Any man from the Israelites or from the foreigners who reside in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death ... because he has given some of his children to Molech ... when he gives some of his children to Molech

Again, and I don't know why you cannot understand this simple fact - the statements against human sacrifice were categrically to sacrificing your children to MOLECH! In this verse, god has issue with "human sacrifice to Molech." The issue could also have been "singing hymns to Molech", "building a temple to Molech" or "praying to Molech". Note that those are 3 things which if you did to Molech would have resulted in your death, but they are 3 things which god would have loved for you to do for him!

God is the sort of god who is such a micro-manager that he even gave his people laws on how to take a dump and what clothes to wear. Yet nowhere does he say that he is against human sacrifices being offered to him. Don't you think that he would have mentioned it if he was against it?



God accepted the vow to teach jephthah and others including our generation that we must not test God.

So now you know exactly what god was thinking, even if it is not written anywhere in the Bible. Yet below when it comes to why god tested Abraham to kill Isaac, you write "Well i cannot speak on God's behalf why he chose this way of test". What about the Jephthah situation suddenly makes you understand and speak for god? Or is it ebcause, unlike the Abraham story, a gory murder is actually carried out, hence you need to apologise for your god?



Let me remind you of king Solomon who when asked by God what he should be given chose wisdom and it pleased God so much that he gave him more than just that.

God had always known, since Day One, for billions of years, that Solomon would ask for wisdom. So why was that pleasing to god? Ditto Abraham, he always knew Abraham would try kill his son and he would stop him. Why do it? If anything both men had no choice, they were both destined to do what god always knew they would do.



And it was not a sin for the daughter to be dedicated to work in the temple for a life-time.The agony for jeph was that she was his only child,and was not going to get married and have children.

Show me any other example in the Bible, just one, where there was so much agony and mourning because of someone dedicating their lives to god. Just one. And isn't that blasphemous to god if someone cries and wears sack-clothe because they have to go serve him? Isn't that a recipe for instantaneous death? Also if she was in god's service, he would still have been able to see her whenever he wanted to, have meals with her, etc. His reaction is one of someone who is about to lose someone to death!



Let me ask you,how did the daughter know what her father had promised God even before he told her?

Now you're really nit-picking. In her reply to him she said "forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon." So it's obvious he told her the of the vow, then told her how god helped him defeat the Ammonites, and how now she must be burnt alive to honor the vow, and she was now responding to that!



You are rushing to conclusion here,

Jephthah clearly says he will offer the first living thing to god as a burnt offering when he gets home. The first living thing is his daughter. The Bible then unambiguously says that he did to her as he had vowed. Then you claim I am rushing into conclusions? Nah. I'm just telling you what the Bible says

[ATLian]

If i wanted to test if you trusted me enough i would ask you to give me the thing you treasure most,and that has got nothing to do with my interest in that thing,but how much you value it more than me.

First of all, god already knew what those he was testing would do. He didn't need to re-verify it. Secondly, if I wanted to see how much you trusted me, I can ask you to lend me your brand new Benz for an afternoon. That is logical. If I asked you to lend me your 13 year old virgin daughter so I can give her to a group of men so they can molest her as I watch as a measure of your trust, then I hope you'd say no. I hope you'd call me sick and twisted and call off our friendship and call the cops on me. Giving me your daughter wouldn't be a show of how much you trust me, but how stupid and retarded you are. But of course, when god does it (sacrifice your only son to me), it is seen as a logical request. When Abraham actually goes ahead and almost does it, he is seen as a great man of god instead of the twisted demented fack that he is.

What I'm trying to pass across is that there is so much evil stuff that god does that gets a green light from Christians only because it is god doing it. I think a higher being should be held to a higher standard than lower beings! That's why a jungu who works in some warehouse somewhere can shout nigger when drunk and still keep his job, but the presi of the US would have to immediately resign if he ever said that!



If God really agreed with human sacrifice i think he would have mentioned it clearly as a law or commandment.

Let me bounce the question back to you. If god was really against human sacrifice to him, don't you think he would have clearly mentioned it somewhere?

[Moha 9]

Originally Posted by jasakwa

We know that the 9 (10) planets rotate around the sun, in different planes i gather, forming a concentric pattern (circle within a circle, though some patterns are eliptical),

Young ben we have 8 planets.pluto was demoted to planet like body classification.


if we take the gravitational forces into consideratio, as you have just explained, we note that planetary gravity is real, i mean look at earths tides affected by the moon.

God designed them such that the gravitational system acts in favor of planet earth.Jupiter has been known to diver or in most recent case deflected a large comet.

kumpavu wewe who said there r 8 planets....there r 9 planets mjinga wewe......!!!!



NO PLUTO NO PEACE