[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by ndigila

That's an excellent thesis. But you didn't answer my question.

If evolution and the big bang are true, does that mean that belief in supernatural is illogical/inconsistent with human nature?

Perfectly logical.

Your question though assumes the personality of supernatural to be imaginary or rather formless, that is, not real or rather physical. In both situations, supernatural is a form of intelligence that operates beyond our human ability and knowledge.

What I'm saying is that spirits, angels and devils have intelligence that other supernatural beings possibly in existence according to NASA imaginations posses too. The intelligences also believed to exist according to scientists assumptions of other planets, the aliens etc, are in the category of supernatural.

Again, it would be illogical to stop believing in supernatural if the evolution and big bang theory is actually true.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by jasakwa

Your arguement doesn't hold water atlian,God never explained to man what lightening is and how to make it.He gave man the brains for that purpose.Where it is writen God spoke in flashes of lightening,still doesn't make every act of lightening a manifestation of God's anger.if the people chose to believe it that way then their brains weren't stimulated enough.[/color]

Jasakwa,

you totally and completely missed my point. All I'm saying is many things that were once atributed to god by a less knowledgable man are now atributed to something else by a more informed man. Lightning was but an example. There are many more examples!

I just think that in the future we will get to know more and more about where we came from. The more we know, the less we'll give credit to god for creation. One day we'll eventually know where we came from and then even Christians will sadly be forced to accept that they have believed in a load of hogwash all these years!

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by bible_reader

[color="Blue"]
2.Your descendants shall be as many as the sands of the sea,and as numerous as the stars of the heavens.

Now scientist agree that stars are as many as the sands of the sea,milky way alone has over 200,000,000,000 visible by hubble.

Bible_Reader,

the number you have given above is 200 BILLION! There are currently 6 Billion people alive. I once read that there are more people living right now than all those who have ever lived and died COMBINED! Meaning that maybe 12 Billion people have existed since the world begun. How do you then come up with the 200 Billion number? That's a number that would be impossible for the earth to hold.

Your number in the Bible is straight out wrong.

And BTW stars are in the trillions, not even billions!

[Msoto]

Originally Posted by ATLian

Jasakwa,

you totally and completely missed my point. All I'm saying is many things that were once atributed to god by a less knowledgable man are now atributed to something else by a more informed man. Lightning was but an example. There are many more examples!

[/Q]

Of course ATLian...of course there are many examples that can be conjured

[Q]
I just think that in the future we will get to know more and more about where we came from. The more we know, the less we'll give credit to god for creation. One day we'll eventually know where we came from and then even Christians will sadly be forced to accept that they have believed in a load of hogwash all these years!

I disagree the more we know..the more uncertain everything becames.

Being 'solved' or 'known' does not refute the presence of God in the solution.

There isn't deduction, induction or exclusion proof for showing God's absence.

I know alot and give credit to God, am I an anomaly?

You know alot and don't give credit to God?

How can you be certain its not in God's plan that you doubt Him?

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by ATLian

Jasakwa,

you totally and completely missed my point. All I'm saying is many things that were once atributed to god by a less knowledgable man are now atributed to something else by a more informed man. Lightning was but an example. There are many more examples!

I just think that in the future we will get to know more and more about where we came from. The more we know, the less we'll give credit to god for creation. One day we'll eventually know where we came from and then even Christians will sadly be forced to accept that they have believed in a load of hogwash all these years!

Atlian I had earlier on assumed your question but since you have made it more clear, thanks to Jasakwa's response, I would like to give an understanding on what Christians generally say:

Let's stick to your example of the rain. What we know now is how the rain is basically formed. The principles underlying rain formation was not understood by man, and the reasoning restricted to primary involvement of a god in the bringing of the rain according to his desires; like a man opening a shower for water to sprinkle down.

As the basic laws governing rain formation have been understood, the same man now wants to ignore in total any involvement of God in the formation of rain.

But Christians would afterwards attribute the rain formation to God who controls, and had in the first place enabled the existence of the laws, the laws themselves. And to this we say God is Alpha of all that is. I still attribute rain primarily to God, and I can still pray to him for rains, and it rains.

[ATLian]

Take for example the human body. It is a work in which even human intelligence cannot imagine to create. It was argued that a simple intelligent calculator could not be realized through evolution, but an intelligent mind had to put some effort.

@ Grip & Bible_Reader,

I'm always very amused at the way Christians go on and on about how man had to have been created because he is just too complex to have come about by himself - then they say that god, who is infinitely more complex than man, wasn't created.

I wrote the below a while back, let me know if it drives my point home:

Remember those little paper boats we used to make in early primary school by folding a piece of paper? I'm sure you do. That's about the absolute smallest and weakest boat that exists.

On the other extreme end are the US Navy's Nimitz class nuclear powered aircraft carriers. The Nimitz class carriers are the most advanced and powerful machines (not just ships) ever built. The latest one, the U.S.S. George H.W. Bush, was just completed last month, and it's a beast. It weighs 100,000+ tons, is a third of a kilometer long, it's as tall as the Kenyatta Conference Center and it carries a full-time staff of 7,000 people. It carries 100 aircraft which are armed to the core and each of which are marvels of technology. Since it's nuclear powered it can virtually sail forever. It has enough firepower to destroy the world many times over. Its nuclear generators produce enough energy to run a small town for a year. The wires and cables running through it can go around the world many times. I can go on and on describing it's specs, but I'm sure you see my point that it's bila question the most amazing and most powerful machine that exists.

Now assume you met a Mr. John Doe who has seen both boats. The interesting thing is John Doe argues and insists that the little paper boat MUST have been created by something. Yaani he just cannot understand how the paper boat, despite its simplicity, could have created itself. It makes no sense to him at all. But at the same time, John Doe believes that the U.S.S. G.H.W. Bush created itself. He doesn't see why it couldn't have created itself. It is the most powerful boat ever, but he still argues that it created itself. He absolutely doesn't see the double-sided nature of his argument. He doesn't see the irony or fallacy in his argument.

My question is - how would you even start arguing with John Doe about the "ridiculousness" of his stance. What would you tell him to make him understand how fallacious his argument is.

When you answer that, maybe your answers will help me argue with someone who just cannot see how man (the paper boat) could have come out of nowhere - but he has absolutely no problems believing that god (the aircraft carrier) came out of nowhere!

[grip_daddy]

How can you be certain its not in God's plan that you doubt Him?

The bible records that God's will is that every man be saved. How could He again be having a plan that some doubt Him?

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

But Christians would afterwards attribute the rain formation to God who controls, and had in the first place enabled the existence of the laws, the laws themselves. And to this we say God is Alpha of all that is. I still attribute rain primarily to God, and I can still pray to him for rains, and it rains.

Do you atribute the monsoon rains in Bangladesh that kill thousands every year to god? And you you hold him then culpable for those deaths?

Do you also then atribute lack of rain, and the disastrous effects it has, to god? When millions died in drought related famines, did you atribute that to god?

When other naturally occuring phenomenons happen, like volcanic explosions, tsunami-producing earthquakes, landslides, etc, do you atribute them to god? And if you do, you you hold him accountable for the ensuing death, injuries and misery that follows?

I don't. If I lived before man had the knowledge, I'd have believed that a volcanic explosion ama an earthquake was the god of the underground unleashing his anger, and I'd have sacrificed a goat to appease him. I'd have believed that a famine was the result of man annoying Jehovah and that sacrificing a bull would appease him.

But now that I am more knowledgeable, I remove god from the equation. I know earthquakes are about tectonic plate movements, and volcanic explosions have to do with molten rock under serious pressure below the earth's surface. I also know that sacrificing ever bull in the world would never bring rain to the Sahara. etc.

God has nothing to do with these and many other things that men thought he was responsible for!

[grip_daddy]

Atlian Christians do not believe that God created Himself. Yes we believe that God was never created, but He has always been. He exists in a timeless eternity. He has always existed from time past and is now present, and will always be. God does not have a begining, neither an end. It is to our belief there was a time in all eternity that God was not. So He cant be compared to simple complex life like man, of which we all believe had a begining. So I humbly disagree with your analogy of the two boats.

[ATLian]

I disagree the more we know..the more uncertain everything becames.
Msoto,

please explain this statement. Compare, say, what we now know of malaria or cancer compared to what people knew in 1850. Then the locals getting malaria thought it was a curse and they died like fleas from that curse. Now we know what causes it, how to cure it, and how to prevent it. Ditto cancer. How can you then say that it's more uncertain right now?

By definition, knowledge removes uncertainities. With knowledge there will still be uncertainities, but they'll be less than the uncertainities you had with less knowledge!


Being 'solved' or 'known' does not refute the presence of God in the solution.

It does when the issue at hand is mutually exclusive. e.g. creation. We were either created ama we evolved. If we get 100% irrefutable proof that we evolved, then that automatically means that god didn't create us, thus eliminating god's presence!



How can you be certain its not in God's plan that you doubt Him?

What purpose would god have to make me doubt him? Isn't that just dooming me to eternal hell, and robbing me of my free will?