[grip_daddy]

Atlian,

I would like to give an examination to the issue of sacrifices, promises, and trials as your questions would need answers on the same. Before I embark on conceptual analysis of the three topical issues, I would like to first of all explain few principles that will underline my arguement. These principles include, but not limited to:

1. God's ways. These ways are not the same ways as those required by man to follow when in a relationship with God, but rather the ways of God's own actions, abilities and power. For example, whereas man is bound to abide by the law of gravity, God is said to move according to His own will. The law of gravity and any other natural law does not bind Him, for He is over and above any known laws, given that He is the originator of such laws. The book of Isaiah 55:8 gives us that idea when it it says, "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the LORD." In this verse alone, it is shown that even our reasoning, which will automatically include our logics and rationality, is below that of God for "as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." vs 9. As a person who expresses belief in the bible as an express means through which God communicates not only His will to us, but also His character and individuality, I buy the message of that verse as I have explained.

2. One of the differing ways that God deals with us is in the way He judges. Man judges according to the outward visible actions (mostly as a reactive means to deal with fault), as opposed to God's way of judgement which takes a closer look at the shape of the mind, the desires of the heart, and the requirements of His will as seen in the great conflict between Him and Satan. This has been made clear in many verses of the bible, and from another post, I saw that you agree that God's way of judgement is not only based on the outward visible actions of events.

3. The laws which if broken renders one sinful were originated by God, not for Him to keep, but for man to keep. These laws are an expression for His will for man thereby implying He's is the ultimate judge to decide who is innocent and who is guilty. Over and over again the bible says that no man should judge anyone when it comes to morality and righteousness of fellow humans. This judgement is entirely for God to know, for after all it is His laws that determine the righteous vs unrighteous actions and intents. An example would be to remember that when the disciples were accused by man that they ate wheat from a field on a sabbath day, Jesus said that they were innocent, even when such action could logically be seen as breaking the sabbath law. So, let's not label some as innocent for it is God to that labelling.

4. The innocence or guilt of any individual will be decided at the great judgement day when everyone will bow before God the Almighty and say He is LORD and God of all Creation. That day, even the sins that were commited in secret places will be made bare, the reasons for sending some young children to hell made known, and the explanation as to why some specific disasters laid open for all to see. Until then, the actions of God are just because of principle number one.

5. God is the same yesterday, today and forever but man changes. Relatively speaking, when the earth has rotated and earth's surface has changed in references to sun's position, man sees as though the sun has changed. In God's dealing with man, and since man change in mental framework with time, man might not easily realize God's consistencies.

If there is any clarification needed for any of these principles, please let me know.

[grip_daddy]

This post seek to examine the place and intent of animal sacrifices as given in the old testament.


The plan of salvation was formulated long before the creation of the earth, let alone man. God in His foreknowledge had seen the actualization of man's fall and therein put in place the plan for his redemption. The fall of man which would earn him eternal death would bring another dimension of the conflict between God and Satan, that indeed God's laws were unrealistic and no living creature should be required to obey them. When a closer look is given to the great controversy that sparked war in heaven, it would be realized that the creation of man was to done to prove whether the claims of Satan were right, or if indeed God still had the rightful place of being the only Being that deserved worship and reverence.

There were two major ways in which God would win; one is if man indeed went ahead to keep a simple law given him at creation, and two if God could volunteer His own life through the person of Jesus Christ to die (eternally) the death of man in case option one failed. This would demonstrate the extent of the love of God to the entire creation, and offer an opportunity to a believing man to reclaim his lost eternal life.

When therefore man decided to eat of the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden, the first option for God's victory in the great controversy was lost, and this called for the implementation of the second option. This was revealed when God spoke to the serpent and said, "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" Gen 3:15.

The verse above shows the revelation of God's foreknowledge to the conflict that could now be said to based on earth. Understanding that Satan was the one being addressed in this verse as serpent, and that the offspring referred in this verse was Christ (please note the singularity of the offspring), it is therefore easy to see that the war would result only to the bruising of the woman's offspring, but the serpent himself (not his offspring for, "it shall bruise thy head") would be bruised at the head. This is a verse that foretells of the victory the woman's offspring shall have.

Though there is no clear indication as to the full white and black revelation of the coming of Christ to Adam, but the institution of sacrifices established could be seen in the life of Cain and Abel. In this story, we find the two brothers were required to offer burnt offering to God where Abel's offering was approved.

The lives of other patriarchs such as Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob also reveal continual animal sacrifices that showed consistencies on the type of animals chosen. Though no written records were available then for the types of animals approved by God, the consistencies shown by this patriarchs tells of a hidden hand of God that He was in control of the type of sacrifices being offered.

The informal sacrifices ended at the wilderness when the children of Israel were fleeing Egypt. In this wilderness, God gave a specific command for the necessity to build a sanctuary for the purpose of formalizing the sacrifices. The sanctuary's specific structures and layout was given to Moses at Mt. Sinai, and afterward by word instructions, God reminded Moses to ensure every specific detail was followed. God said, "And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount." Ex 25: 40.

[jasakwa]

Atlian response to fiery :It doesn't say anywhere not to give your children to Jehovah! Please get that difference. Just like god says do not pray to Baal. That doesn't mean you shouldn't pray to Jehovah!!!!!

First of all i feel fiery preacher did not respond adequately to atlian's question.
Now to you atlian - assume you went to south africa and met those people who rape children thinking they will be cured of AIDS.Then you command them not to rape children.
Am sure they will get you straight and not question if your statement allows them to rape adults with AIDS.

or if you go to DRC and find the soldiers eating human flesh,and instruct them not to eat flesh of their enemy,and not imagine that they can eat the flesh of their friends.

God had given out the 10 comandments and torah,and there is no where he mentioned that they can offer human flesh as sacrifice.

Deutronomy 18:9-13
When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

and the main law in torah was clear as well.

Leviticus 1:1-2

The LORD called to Moses and spoke to him from the Tent of Meeting. He said, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When any of you brings an offering to the LORD, bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock.

[grip_daddy]

In my first examination to this concept of sacrifices, I summarily gave a brief history to its institution with the first family leaving it at its formalization. This second part seek to give answers to the following question:

Were the Old Testament sacrifices playing a part in forgiveness of sin?

There are some people who understand that the blood of Jesus was only meant to act as forgiving medium to them that live beyond the cross to the second coming period. They reason that since life before Christ required that people offer sacrifices when they have commited sin, then God accepted those sacrifices as the REAL atonement for sin.

This notion does not stand a closer biblical scrutiny when some verses are understood literally the way they should be. For example, Jesus said, "I am they way, the truth and the life: no one cometh to the Father but by me." John 14:6.

This means that only through Jesus can anyone come to God. Even the Old Testament prophets referred to Jesus as Lord and God. David recognised this fact when he wrote in Psalms 110: "The LORD said unto my Lord, sit thou unto my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." See Matthew 22:42-46.

Then if Christ is the only way to man's salvation, why were the Israelites required to offer sacrifices?

The ceremonies and various activities that were instituted as part of Israel governance policies, traditions and laws served three specific purposes; one was to show the surrounding nations the greatness of God, second was to remind them where they came from, and lastly was to teach, preach and reveal to them the coming of the great Messiah.

It is in the revelation of the coming Messiah that all the sacrifices were instituted. Reading Hebrews 7-10, one realizes that the sacrifices were simply a shadow to the death of Christ (Christ was the real sacrifice), the sanctuary was just a copy to the real heavenly sanctuary (Remember Moses was told to build according to copy shown him in the mount) and the priests, including Melchidek, were but representing the Priesthood of Christ that He would do in the heavenly places.

These chapters in Hebrew reveal a lot why the sacrifices could not offer forgiveness, for at one point it questions the necessity to offer them over and over again if indeed they could make anyone perfect.

Having therefore known the reasons behind the sacrifices, it would be illogical to argue that Christ's death was another human sacrifice that God accepted the same way He would have accepted any other sacrifice. The death of Christ was the ONLY sacrifice accepted by God for the salvation of man, and any other sacrifice was simply a pointer, a shadow or a testimony to the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ our Savior and Redeemer. I think Jasakwa is handling the question as to the acceptance of human sacrifices by God very well.

[jasakwa]

HUMAN SACRIFICES PART 1

The whole story just makes god look bad. Kwanza, we realize that he accepts human sacrifices, just like those savage gods Christians like to bash. Secondly, god had always known what the first living thing to meet Jephthah was going to be. He'd have denied the vow, or caused a bull to walk in before the daughter. But he let things stay as they were and the virgin daughter died. In fact if you believe that everything happens according to god's will, then you have to believe that god willed for her to be the first living thing Jephthah met, meaning he wanted her as a sacrifice!

So since i've brought evidence like you requested above, let's discuss this

Ok i see your quest is for burnt offerings made for vows,and your answer is located in Leviticus 22:17-19

The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to Aaron and his sons and to all the Israelites and say to them: 'If any of you either an Israelite or an alien living in Israel presents a gift for a burnt offering to the LORD, either to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, you must present a male without defect from the cattle, sheep or goats in order that it may be accepted on your behalf.

Now you see there was never any mention of human sacrifices,and further to this God warned israelites not to sacrifice their children or copy any evil tradition from strange tribes.

Leviticus 18:9-10
When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter..

The Other issue you are avoiding conspicously is that God doesn't control our will,he might know what will happen because he forsee things ahead of time,but he has options either way depending on our decision.Like in this case God knew what would happen upon all possible options jepthtah would have made.

If you dare God to a contest of choice,be sure he will go for your best..but the story of jephtah doesn't end on a definate note;

she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

why virginity is stressed more than death? the answer is clear she was only doomed to a life of perpetual celibacy.

[jasakwa]

God told Moses to lead his men against the Midianites and kill all of them, including children, babies and women! THe men did as they were told, but they couldn't kill the women and children, so they brought them back alive. Moses was pissed at god's direct laws being disobeyed. So he told them to kill all the male children, all the women, and all the non-virgin girls. The virgin girls they were allowed to keep as sex slaves. The men promptly did that, greatly pleasing god.

This way, of the 16,000 virgin girls, 32 were given to god as an offering! We can only imagine the terrible painful way they died, and how pleased god was as 32 virgin girls were being tied up so as be burnt in his honor!

The spoils of war was distributed according to law given by God to Moses.Whatever was discribed as for God was actually for the priests,they had no inheritance and were not allowed to work,so whatever portion kept aside for God was for them.
Numbers 18:14-15

"Everything in Israel that is devoted [a] to the LORD is yours. The first offspring of every womb, both man and animal, that is offered to the LORD is yours. But you must redeem every firstborn son and every firstborn male of unclean animals. When they are a month old, you must redeem them at the redemption price set at five shekels [b] of silver, according to the sanctuary shekel, which weighs twenty gerahs..

20 The LORD said to Aaron, "You will have no inheritance in their land, nor will you have any share among them; I am your share and your inheritance among the Israelites.

So atlian stop the blasphemous accusations.Now your next question is more interesting,you suppose that these captured virgins were to be used as sex slaves?you are very wrong..check this out

Deutronomy 21:10-14
When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes.

The laws were surely fair given the time and customs of the tribes at that time.Virgins were taken because they were considered pure,you wouldn't want to play around with diseases that were plaguing the people of that time.

[jasakwa]

HUMAN SACRIFICES PART 3
Telling Abraham to kill his only son as a sacrifice to god. We know that Abraham didn't do it, but the fact that god asked him to is very telling, because it means that god does approve of human sacrifices to him.

God was testing abraham's faith in him.He chose isaac because he was precious to abraham,and he chose to use sacrfice as the test to symbolise that it was through isaac that Jesus(the sacrificial lamb) was to come.

Romans 9:8

Nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but "It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name."
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants



That's because god would never ask his men to do something he doesn't approve of.

You are wrong Atlia,God doesn't approve of prostitution but he commanded hosea to marry a prostitute as an oracle for israel.Through His command to Hosea, God brings to life a consistent picture used throughout the Old Testament. In this picture, the Lord is the husband of Israel, and their passionate, chronic attraction for idols was like the lust of an adulterer. His people were as unfaithful as a prostitute was.


e.g. god would never have challenged Abraham to have a homosexual 3-some with his 2 main herdsmen coz he disapproves of homosexuality

I don't think gayism was something that could have tested isaac's faith well as taking his son to the alter did.There was no link between salvation of mankind and gayism.

[jasakwa]

Human sacrifices part 5 sacrifice of jesus.

the earthly burnt offerings only symbolised spiritual sin atonement in heaven.the burning of animals was routinely done every year by a human high priest who would enter the earthly holy of holies.but with jesus he being a godhead capable of entering the real holy of holies in heaven offered at god's request to once and for all atone man's sin and restore peace with god.

hebrews 9: 11-15 when christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[b] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the most holy place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean.how much more, then, will the blood of christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to god, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living god! for this reason christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.


perhaps you may ask why did he have to die?well when you write a will,your lawyer will execute your will only after your death.to render the self-sacrifice perfect, it was necessary that the offerer should spiritually die, and that through the mediator of his salvation he should put his soul into a living fellowship with the lord by sinking it as it were into the death of the sacrifice that had died for him, and should also bring his bodily members within the operations of the gracious spirit of god, that thus he might be renewed and sanctified (separated for holy use) both body and soul and enter into union with god.

[jasakwa]

HUMAN SACRIFICES PART 6

There was a 3 year famine, and to end it, King David sacrificed 7 sons of Saul to god:

2 Samuel 21:6 Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the LORD

When the 7 were delivered and hang up for the lord, he must have relished that sacrifice for he immediately ended the drought.

Read the entire storo in 2 Samuel 21

Surely this was not sacrifice,they were a victim of God's wrath,The amorites were cruel ruthless people who tormented israelites on their way from Egypt.

if you go through the passage carefully it says,study the underlined sentence,they were exposed to the Lord.How do you convert this to sacrifice?

"The king spared Mephibosheth son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, because of the oath before the LORD between David and Jonathan son of Saul. But the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Aiah's daughter Rizpah, whom she had borne to Saul, together with the five sons of Saul's daughter Merab, [a] whom she had borne to Adriel son of Barzillai the Meholathite. He handed them over to the Gibeonites, who killed and exposed them on a hill before the LORD. All seven of them fell together; they were put to death during the first days of the harvest, just as the barley harvest was beginning."

[jaramba]

I am always convinced beyond doubt that God exists by logical perception. The complexities and orderliness of the Universe and what is there points clearly to handiwork of a super genius.

Just look on a simple things like a computer. Surely can it happen about without design and thought from a designer (Engineer).

What man cannot fathom, will always be a mystery to him. Just like a computer is a mystery to a villageman.