[ATLian]

I rarely argue with atheists about scripture because it will boil down to how you interpret scripture and in what context you take it.

Ernest,

you took the escapist route here. I don't blame you, it is kinda hard to justify the wantom murder of little babies.

Anyway, not all scriptures are about intepretation. Some are black and white with no hidden meaning. God drowned all the children in Africa during Noah's flood. Period! No discussion! There is no other way you can intepret that. He also burnt alive all the baby girls in Sodom. Again there is no argument there, and no other intepretation. So I don't understand what you mean by your statement above with respect to the verses and examples I pasted.



Basically your problem with God is the problem of evil and suffering.

That is one of my many issues with god.



Quoting all verses that you dont agree with do not amount to an argument against God.

If I was a Christian, and I quoted verses that you agreed with, you would support them and to you they would form an argument that god is good, god exists, got is all-forgiving, etc. So now that I quote verses that make your god look bad, and suddenly they don't amount to an argument against god? Come on man, you're trying to both have your cake and eat it!



Whats your argument?The Problem of Evil and suffering?

BTW on my rant, I wasn't even trying to argue about evil or suffering. I was just trying to say that at times I wish I had that Christian "thingi" that would make me turn my back on all the facked up things done by god, and then shout and glorify his name out. It would make my life so much simpler.

But since you mentioned it, both are a problem I have a major issue with. The fact that god created evil and allows suffering is just unexplainable to me. After god had created the beautiful world with the waterfalls, mountains, beaches, etc, and then he threw man in there, he saw it fit to create pathogens that cause untold misery, pain and deaths to millions of people. Why? WTF would god create the malaria parasite, which kills 3000 African children a day?



PS: My belief in God is not only Faith based,but based on Reason and Logic

Tell me the reason and Logic part.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by ATLian

so which sect of Christianity do you now belong to? And how is it different from what protestants preach?

Orthodox. There's so many differences I don't even know where to start.

Originally Posted by ATLian

To be fair, Jesus started no churches. Jesus was a Jew who came to preach the Jewish gospel. I think Christianity has to be the only religion whose god doesn't even follow that religion!

Jesus didn't start any churches, but his apostles did. They weren't starting a new religion; its the same old religion albeit with the Messiah and the New covenant.

[ernestombayo7]

[quote=ATLian;627194][b]

i did not take the escapist route,and i will show you why i don't debate about scripture with atheists.

Anyway, not all scriptures are about intepretation. Some are black and white with no hidden meaning. God drowned all the children in Africa during Noah's flood. Period! No discussion! There is no other way you can intepret that.

Thats why i asked you whether you call this act murder or killing?this is a problem of evil and suffering.If God did what he did so as to bring a greater good,then he's justified.

Also Christianity teaches that, This was a warning that God would judge wickedness.

He also burnt alive all the baby girls in Sodom. Again there is no argument there, and no other intepretation. So I don't understand what you mean by your statement above with respect to the verses and examples I pasted.

same as above.

If I was a Christian, and I quoted verses that you agreed with, you would support them and to you they would form an argument that god is good, god exists, got is all-forgiving, etc. So now that I quote verses that make your god look bad, and suddenly they don't amount to an argument against god? Come on man, you're trying to both have your cake and eat it!

strawman argument.no basis for your claims.

But since you mentioned it, both are a problem I have a major issue with. The fact that god created evil and allows suffering is just unexplainable to me. After god had created the beautiful world with the waterfalls, mountains, beaches, etc, and then he threw man in there, he saw it fit to create pathogens that cause untold misery, pain and deaths to millions of people. Why? WTF would god create the malaria parasite, which kills 3000 African children a day?

Christianity does not teach that God created evil.read about the fall.

Tell me the reason and Logic part.

Arguments based on metaphysical,empirical, inductive and subjective reasoning,that is The over 15 arguments for the existence of God,Cosmological arguments,teleological argument,ontological argument,argument from knowledge,moral argument,Arguments from testimony,Argument from a Proper Basis,Arguments from historical events,fine tuning argument etc.

[ATLian]

Thats why i asked you whether you call this act murder or killing?this is a problem of evil and suffering.If God did what he did so as to bring a greater good,then he's justified.

Ernest,

what god did was definitely murder.

There's obviously a difference between murder and killing. Every time someone takes another person's life, a killing has occured, but not every killing is a murder. Murder is always wrong, some killings are morally right. When god killed the homosexuals in Sodom because they were committing the grave sin of homosexuality, it was a justtified killing. When god burnt alive all the little babies in Sodom because some men were having homosexual sex, then that was a murder. And that's the point I'mtrying to pass across - you can't give god a clean slate for all the killings he has done because very many of them involved innocent people!



Christianity does not teach that God created evil.read about the fall.

Are you sure? Let me quote god verbatim in Isaiah 45:6-7:

I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Surely you won't now say that god was high when he wrote that, ama he was wrong, ama what he meant was something else!

Also god created Satan, who is blamed for all evil. God knew before he created Satan that Satan would end up rebelling against him and unleashing his evil in the world. Therefore if you do actually beleive that god mispoke in the verse above and didn't create evil, then you have to at least hold him culpable here for creating Satan!



The over 15 arguments for the existence of God,Cosmological arguments,teleological argument,ontological argument,argument from knowledge,moral argument,Arguments from testimony,Argument from a Proper Basis,Arguments from historical events,fine tuning argument etc

I hope you know that they have all been disproved. Most of them are logical fallacies. Starting with the Cosmological argument i.e. everything that exists must have a cause. The universe exists, therefore the universe has a cause, and that cause is god. This argument is flawed in so many ways. Kwanza, Christians argue god has no cause, meaning that there are some things that exist bila a cause, thus trashing the argument. Also, even if the argument is true that everything has a cause, how do we know that the cause behind the universe is god? etc.

Please go and read about the arguments against all those things you listed, it might be quite eye opening.

[ernestombayo7]

Atilan,

Thank Yo for your reply.

T5he verse in Isaiah was actually a mis-interprtetation by the King james Version.Its been disapproved many wscholars even atheistic Bible scholars.Here is an except from one of the bible Scholars Websites

First of all, the Hebrew word for evil "rah" is used in many different ways in the Bible. In the KJV Bible, it occurs 663 times. 431 times it is translated as "evil." The other 232 times it is translated as "wicked", "bad", "hurt", "harm", "ill", "sorrow", "mischief", "displeased", "adversity", "affliction", "trouble", "calamity", "grievous", "misery", and "trouble." So we can see that the word does not require that it be translated as "evil." This is why different Bibles translate this verse differently. It is translated as "calamity by the NASB and NKJV; "disaster" by the NIV; and "woe" by the RSV;

Second, the context of the verse is speaking of natural phenomena.

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these."

Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is, that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark), and it is God who is able to cause "well-being" as well as "calamity." Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters, and human comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with calamity, distress, etc. This is consistent with other scriptures. For example,

* "And the Lord said to him, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes him dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?" (Exodus 4:11).
* "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6).

Murder is always wrong, some killings are morally right. When god killed the homosexuals in Sodom because they were committing the grave sin of homosexuality, it was a justtified killing. When god burnt alive all the little babies in Sodom because some men were having homosexual sex, then that was a murder. And that's the point I'mtrying to pass across - you can't give god a clean slate for all the killings he has done because very many of them involved innocent people!

I agree.But if God was doing it to prove a point that would drastically save millions of other souls and thus provide the greater good,then wouldn't you agree that it was justified.And just as i stated earlier,since you can't see the greater good that arose out of the killings does not amount to God not having a good reason for the killings.

Also god created Satan, who is blamed for all evil. God knew before he created Satan that Satan would end up rebelling against him and unleashing his evil in the world. Therefore if you do actually beleive that god mispoke in the verse above and didn't create evil, then you have to at least hold him culpable here for creating Satan

But you forget God gave us free-will.And this is some sort of special pleading or argument from ignorance.you could as well say,since God created brains then he's responsible for every human who came up with the idea for killing others.

just the way you would blame ford or toyota for making cars that drunk drivers used to cause accidents and led to deaths of innocent people.

I hope you know that they have all been disproved. Most of them are logical fallacies.

Bold claim.but most of the Theistic arguments are still standing and most efforts to refute them have failed.No doubt there are objections,but so far i have not encountered any successful argument against th major theistic arguments.

Christians argue god has no cause, meaning that there are some things that exist bila a cause, thus trashing the argument. Also, even if the argument is true that everything has a cause, how do we know that the cause behind the universe is god? etc.

the Cosmological argument actually say that things that have a beginning do require a Cause.not everything.so if it can be proven that the universe had a a beginning then its only loical that the Universe had a Cause for its beginning.


God does not have a beginning,thus he does not require a cause for His existence.Its obvious that if God existed
before time,then he was "always there".The "Who create God question" is the old schoolboy question.rare to find serious atheistic philosophers still asking this question in there arguments.

The best counter argument for the cosmological argument is usually based around the conclusion.that the universe had a cause for its existence.

Atheists appeal to QT.Quantum theory and subatomic particles that seem to pop out of nowhere.And some atheistic philosophers are willing to go the "multiverse way" just to avoid God.

Read my blog i have addressed most of the counterarguments against the Cosmological argument.

Please go and read about the arguments against all those things you listed, it might be quite eye opening.



As i told your earlier my belief in God is faith based and grounded in reason and logic.I have Richard Dawkins,"god delusion" book and documentary,articles written by Christopher Hitchens,and other noble atheistic philosophers.I know most of the counter arguments against theistic arguments for the existence of God.I have 4 GB worth of Debates,lectures,sermons documentaries pdf articles and video conferences on philosophy and arguments against and for theistic belief.From Anthony flew(when he was still an atheist) to great Christian philosophers like William Lane craig and New testament scholars Gary habermas.

From Arguments for and against Naturalism,
Arguments for and against a first Cause.
Arguments for and against infinite and finite numbers/events phenomena
Arguments against and for divine intervention
Arguments for and against the historicity of Jesus and New testament authors
etc

Nothing i have never heard.

[lavidanor]

People, you'll have to bear with me. I may drop a comment and "disappear" for a while. The reason is that i have competing matters to attend to and deadlines to beat. There is so much here that i would really have loved to comment on but i can't attempt to do so because of the obvious reasons. I would have loved to generalise what i am about to say for every christian but the concept and idea of christianity means different things to different people. If at any time, i gave an impression that i have the answers for every "godly debate" then that was a wrong impression. May i say this: the fact that i am a christian doesn't mean that i have all the answers pertaining to the nature and the workings of god. The so-called atheists need not be surprised when i concede that i also struggle with the same questions. The only different is that while they have positioned themselves to question god and rebel against him, i have chosen to ask god questions and still wait upon him even when he doesn't provide the answers. There is a difference between questioning god and asking him questions. For those interested see my reflections on the matter: “when god did not fulfil his word.” note: the hard version of this is coming soon. I will remove the link after 2 weeks. If anybody is interested in reading it thereafter, he/she can contact me. I would also recommend philip yancey’s “where is god when it hurts?”

[lavidanor]

Why is the system changing letters that ought to be capital (upper cases) into lower cases. If you see my latest post. I had every capital letter in place but the system has forced them into lower cases. I tried editing them but they still remained lower cases. Me as a believer, I am so particular when it comes to how I refer to Deity.

[lavidanor]

I don't understand why the link about "when god did not fulfil his word" is not opening. Maybe it is because of the changes that the system is forcing on the text. You can copy and paste on your browser the following: http://www.cilmin.com/media/ogwenos%...e ctronic.pdf

[lavidanor]

I have given up! The system is seems to be programmed not to accept such links. Those who are interested may contact me through the private message. We can then see how to avail the link.

Nevertheless, let me try one more desperate attempt:

When God Didn't Fulfil His Word

[infinitepyro]

Originally Posted by ciceraw

@Nyundo....Satan did not commit blasphemy. He tried to be "God-like" which if you ask a lot of people, they would not mind being like God too. Should we actually not pursue Godliness ardently?

About the question of Satan being forgiven, yes he can. Basically if you believe in the bible, then you also have to be open to the idea that the order of things as we know them could change if God wills so and they have in the past. Take Lucifer himself...had God not created him an angel to live in heaven forever? By God deciding to banish him out of heaven, did he not essentially renege on that earlier arrangement of bliss forever with Lucifer as the heavenly choir master?

Wasn't Adam and Even supposed to live in the garden of Eden for eternity but due to the intervention of a serpent God changed his plans?

God can change the order of things if he so wishes. God can work out a deal with the devil and next thing you know we humans can now start sinning freely without the possibility of going to hell!

Kibaki and Raila shook hands, don't be too quick to discount everything.

NO! Am sorry but according to the bible u r wrong. The LORD of the Bible doesnt change his mind. He is, afterall, perfect. He created Lucifer for that sole reason of spreading evil and to trick Eve and eventually burn forever in the Lake of Sulphur. He created Adam and Eve to be tricked and all of human-kind be subject 2 sin at birth. He created us to suffer and eventually burn til Infinity. This is all assuming that some old belief supported by a questionable & extremely vague book is true ofcourse, assumin God is 4 real.

Originally Posted by lavidanor

People, you'll have to bear with me. I may drop a comment and "disappear" for a while. The reason is that i have competing matters to attend to and deadlines to beat. There is so much here that i would really have loved to comment on but i can't attempt to do so because of the obvious reasons. I would have loved to generalise what i am about to say for every christian but the concept and idea of christianity means different things to different people. If at any time, i gave an impression that i have the answers for every "godly debate" then that was a wrong impression. May i say this: the fact that i am a christian doesn't mean that i have all the answers pertaining to the nature and the workings of god. The so-called atheists need not be surprised when i concede that i also struggle with the same questions. The only different is that while they have positioned themselves to question god and rebel against him, i have chosen to ask god questions and still wait upon him even when he doesn't provide the answers. There is a difference between questioning god and asking him questions. For those interested see my reflections on the matter: “when god did not fulfil his word.” note: the hard version of this is coming soon. I will remove the link after 2 weeks. If anybody is interested in reading it thereafter, he/she can contact me. I would also recommend philip yancey’s “where is god when it hurts?”

This is the type of thinkin that scares me. Acting on faith despite shockin evidence to support non existence. This is that point in life wen one depends on so many things and the responsibility becomes too much thus we'd rather do the most human thing n pass the buck, dump it all on an imaginary collage of a being. On the other hand, evidence myt not just cut it, I myt b too blinded by facts n figures n faults to see what they with faith see. Too stubborn to believe regardless, as millions of Christians do.

Originally Posted by lavidanor

I have given up! The system is seems to be programmed not to accept such links. Those who are interested may contact me through the private message. We can then see how to avail the link.

Nevertheless, let me try one more desperate attempt:

When God Didn't Fulfil His Word

This one works, well atleast at this very moment it does.