[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by ATLian

God being all-loving is also all-just.He does not let his love get in the way of Justice....Christianity also teaches that God is all just.

Ernest,

at times I really wish I had the faith that you Christians have, coz it would make my life so much simpler. Let me explain.

I just gave an example of god doing nothing as a little innocent girl is brutally raped then killed over a 4 day period. I can give you other examples of god doing crazy evil things:

- when he killed all of Jobs children and servants so as to win a stupid bet with a devil, a bet which he had always known he would win since he had always know that Job wouldn't deny him.

- when he drowned every little baby boy and girl in Africa during Noah's flood.

- when he killed all the first born males in Egypt because Pharaoh didn't release the Israelites. This is even crazier when you consider that Pharaoh didn't release them because god intentionally hardened his heart!!!!

- when he burnt to death all the little innocent children in Sodom and Gomorrah because men in those cities were having gay sex

- when he accepted an innocent virgin girl as a human sacrifice

- etc etc etc

As an atheist (and a rational man), I question (like anyone should) what sort of god can do these things? And how can that god still be called all-good and all-loving?

But as a Christian, you turn your back to these painful questions, then thump your chest and shout out loud how good and merciful and loving your god is. You chose to sweep all this stuff under the rug.

It's like the beaten-wife syndrome. The husband beats and cheats on you. You still swear how much you love him, and how much he loves you, and how his beatings are a way of showing you how much he loves you. The whole world can see what a monster he is, but the wife's blinders convince her that she deserves the beatings and that they are good for her.

I just cannot do that. I cannot be the beaten wife, I cannot smile and praise our dictator as he destroys the country, and I won't call a god who does evil things "good, all-loving, all-just and all-merciful". Heck no.

But always asking these questions becomes draining at times, and I sometimes wish I could do like the Christian or battered wife and smile hard and act like all is good. That way I could go to church every Sunday and remind god that despite him doing nothing as Jessica was being raped and killed, I still think he is good, merciful and just. Then with Jessica still on my thoughts, I'd put the life and safety of my daughter in his hands, and pray to him to keep her safe from people like Couey.

It would make my life so much simpler!

I rarely argue with atheists about scripture because it will boil down to how you interpret scripture and in what context you take it.Am not ready to explain or justify all verses in the bible that you have a problem with.There are many theodicies that deal with such issues.Basically your problem with God is the problem of evil and suffering.

Quoting all verses that you dont agree with do not amount to an argument against God.
Lay out your premises and conclusion to make up an argument and then we can see if your argument holds logically.
Also quoting all the instances of suffering in the world does not help if you do not have an argument.
Whats your argument?The Problem of Evil and suffering?

PS: My belief in God is not only Faith based,but based on Reason and Logic.

[nyundo]

Lucifer cannot be forgiven based on the Biblical teaching found in it Mark 3:22-30 where it states,

"And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, 'He has Beelzebub,' and, 'By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.' …'Assuredly, I [Jesus] say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation;' because they said, 'He has an unclean spirit'"

In Matthew 12:31-32, Jesus says to the Pharisees,

"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come"

*** Remember that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah's active force and you cannot have one without the other unlike some common Christendom teachings.

[infinitepyro]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

Basically your problem with God is the problem of evil and suffering.
Quoting all verses that you dont agree with do not amount to an argument against God.
Lay out your premises and conclusion to make up an argument and then we can see if your argument holds logically.
Also quoting all the instances of suffering in the world does not help if you do not have an argument.
Whats your argument?The Problem of Evil and suffering?

PS: My belief in God is not only Faith based,but based on Reason and Logic.

Spot on dude! Ur extremely sharp it seems, so anyway, we're just tryin 2 get ya'l 2 accept that God isnt perfect. That shouldnt be hard considerin all the evidence given.

Originally Posted by nyundo

Lucifer cannot be forgiven based on the Biblical teaching found in Mark 3:22-30.....

So basically wot ur sayin is God cant do evrithin ryt?

[HUH?]

Originally Posted by ndigila

People fail to realize that one of Jesus' objectives was to start a church and not to leave us philosophizing over written documents.

how? your post is excellent. However, this statement confounds me. A muslim would think otherwise. Islam is extremely philosophical and so was the documented life of Isa (Jesus). I think the goal of an ascetic isn't to start church....but that's just my opinion.

[HUH?]

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

Lay out your premises and conclusion to make up an argument and then we can see if your argument holds logically.

following ATlian's theme.....

hypothesis : god is love, and love is not murder

premise one = god is all loving (True) = p

premise two = love is not murder (True) = q

p ^ !q = c

examining the implication above, p ^ !q is a contradiction . i'll let you look for it.

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

Also quoting all the instances of suffering in the world does not help if you do not have an argument.
Whats your argument?The Problem of Evil and suffering?

the argument is above

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

PS: My belief in God is not only Faith based,but based on Reason and Logic.

......

[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by HUH?

following ATlian's theme.....

hypothesis : god is love, and love is not murder

premise one = god is all loving (True) = p

premise two = love is not murder (True) = q

p ^ !q = c

examining the implication above, p ^ !q is a contradiction . i'll let you look for it.







the argument is above

This is a disguised Problem of Evil and Suffering.

Your premise 2 is not neccesarily true.It has to have some conditionality.

What do you define as murder, uncalled for prejudicial killings = homicide?or simply the killing of another being = ?

Surely there are instances when murder is allowed.

1.When ones life is in danger and the only survival method is disabling the enemy fatally.
2. During war,whe one country is defending itself from the invasion of another army.The soldiers have to Kill,so as to protect its citizens from maybe a potential massacre by the the enemy.
3. In certain medical cases when patients have become a vegetable and there is no hope of recovery.

If your premise was love is not uncalled for killings of innocent people where no greater good can be achieved.

Then p^!q would be a contradiction.

But then i would ask you if indeed God did allow killing of innocent people(eg Jesus),how would you know it was not for a greater good?

You might say i cannot see any possible good that may have come out of eg the Holocaust.But that does not amount to God not having a good reason for allowing the holocaust.

Infact you have to be omniscient to claim that you know all the possible outcomes/effects on every person and the world at large in all history of mankind and future for each and every instance of suffering in the word and there is no possible Good that can come out of them.

[robertirina]

Thanks so much for that over understanding of jah himself.Hail Sellasie say they can't take the covenant from him.babloly is falling and one good day devil gonna go donw on his knees and worship jah rastarian.so keep it lock jah must send you to pass the message to us. stay blessed

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by HUH?

how? your post is excellent. However, this statement confounds me. A muslim would think otherwise. Islam is extremely philosophical and so was the documented life of Isa (Jesus). I think the goal of an ascetic isn't to start church....but that's just my opinion.

Jesus told his apostles to spread the message about him and they did this by establishing churches in the various regions in the Roman empire. Only at the end of their lives did they start writing things down, so the church pre-dates the first New Testament text by about 30 years. It was this church that canonized the New Testament 300 years later. So what most people have done is accepted the Bible but rejected the church that took extra care to preserve it. And this I believe is the cause of denominationalism.

[ciceraw]

@Nyundo....Satan did not commit blasphemy. He tried to be "God-like" which if you ask a lot of people, they would not mind being like God too. Should we actually not pursue Godliness ardently?

About the question of Satan being forgiven, yes he can. Basically if you believe in the bible, then you also have to be open to the idea that the order of things as we know them could change if God wills so and they have in the past. Take Lucifer himself...had God not created him an angel to live in heaven forever? By God deciding to banish him out of heaven, did he not essentially renege on that earlier arrangement of bliss forever with Lucifer as the heavenly choir master?

Wasn't Adam and Even supposed to live in the garden of Eden for eternity but due to the intervention of a serpent God changed his plans?

God can change the order of things if he so wishes. God can work out a deal with the devil and next thing you know we humans can now start sinning freely without the possibility of going to hell!

Kibaki and Raila shook hands, don't be too quick to discount everything.

[ATLian]

Hey, no problem. I can fully identify with the problems you've presented and this is the main reason why I left the Protestant church as a whole.
Ndigila,

so which sect of Christianity do you now belong to? And how is it different from what protestants preach?



Some (and these are Christians) even go to the extent of saying that no church today can claim to be the church that Jesus started

To be fair, Jesus started no churches. Jesus was a Jew who came to preach the Jewish gospel. I think Christianity has to be the only religion whose god doesn't even follow that religion!