[ernestombayo7]

Originally Posted by ATLian

[b][color="blue"]

Ernest,

I understand that. I understand that you'll be forgiven and end up in heaven only if you're genuinely sorry (and of course if you also believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of god blah blah blah...). My point is - somebody like Hitler could one day have woken up and realized how facked up he was. He could then have been genuinely sorry and remorseful for all he had done. He could then have accepted Christ as his personal saviour and asked god for forgiveness. For doing that, god would have forgiven him for starting the war which resulted in 40 million people dying and 100 million being injured. He would serve ZERO punishment under god, and be rewarded with an eternity in heaven. On the other hand, if I am a good person, but I chose my god given intelligence to question the existence of god, then I die without having had a chance to accept Christ, I'll be doomed to hell forever. That is what I find to be a very twisted sense of right and wrong and forgiveness vs punishment.

God has also created intelligent humans and a society which deals with people like Hitler. So even if God forgives hitler,the "world" will still punish him.Because God created humans with a sense of justice.So Hitler will not go unpunished.If God doesn't punish him,the Humans he created will.

That is why, it would be pointless for a murderer to ask God to change the judges mind and not convict him of murder.No matter how genuine the murderer is in asking God for forgiveness,God will surely forgive him,but God will not interfere with the due course of Justice.So the murderer will end up in Jail, Justice served and also forgiven by God.

[ernestombayo7]

ATLIAN,

for doing that, god would have forgiven him for starting the war which resulted in 40 million people dying and 100 million being injured. He would serve ZERO punishment under god, and be rewarded with an eternity in heaven. On the other hand, if I am a good person, but I chose my god given intelligence to question the existence of god, then I die without having had a chance to accept Christ, I'll be doomed to hell forever. That is what I find to be a very twisted sense of right and wrong and forgiveness vs punishment.

God being all-loving is also all-just.He does not let his love get in the way of Justice.Think of it like a Father who loves his child.When his son skips school,the Father does not say i love my son too much,so i wont punish him.The Father still does punish the son.

God knows it would be denying justice to the many Christians who have solemnly worshiped him and served him.
there would be no point for doing anything good since everyone would be forgiven.
Christianity also teaches that God is all just.The ultimate judge.No matter how much he loves you,you still have to pay for your sins.

[infinitepyro]

Originally Posted by ndigila

So are the people in the Bible slandering the devil?

One may argue it that way.

Originally Posted by ndigila

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that ancient serpent called the devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

By them sayin satan deceiveth the world n no proof being given, in a court of law this is termed as heresy.

Originally Posted by bible_reader

Lucifer was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which devolved on Christ alone.

There was contention among the angels. Lucifer and his sympathizers were striving to reform the government of God. They were discontented and unhappy because they could not look into His unsearchable wisdom and ascertain His purposes in exalting His Son, and endowing Him with such unlimited power and command. They rebelled against the authority of the Son.

If I may ask, whu made Lucifer n his followers this way? Christianity els us of how only man wz given free will n so if Lucifer had no free will doesnt tht mean he wz doin wot God had created him 4? In short wot am sayin is that the creator of ALL things created sin n evil too, accordin 2 evidence given by christianity.

Originally Posted by ernestombayo7

ATLIAN,


God being all-loving is also all-just.He does not let his love get in the way of Justice.Think of it like a Father who loves his child.When his son skips school,the Father does not say i love my son too much,so i wont punish him.The Father still does punish the son.

God knows it would be denying justice to the many Christians who have solemnly worshiped him and served him.
there would be no point for doing anything good since everyone would be forgiven.
Christianity also teaches that God is all just.The ultimate judge.No matter how much he loves you,you still have to pay for your sins.

So wot ur sayin basicaly is tht God daent want christians whu'vd licked his a.ss 4 a lifetime 2 feel bad n thus he punishes wrongdoers?! N dont u dare cal tht egoistic, irrational, hot tempered being Just! he is quite tht opposite. He creates us n forces us either worship him or go 2 hell. Sounds alot lyk slavery dont it?

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by infinitepyro

By them sayin satan deceiveth the world n no proof being given, in a court of law this is termed as heresy.

So essentially you're saying that the disciple of God incarnate got it wrong?

[ATLian]

God has also created intelligent humans and a society which deals with people like Hitler. So even if God forgives hitler,the "world" will still punish him.Because God created humans with a sense of justice.So Hitler will not go unpunished.If God doesn't punish him,the Humans he created will.

Ernest,

the thing is - very many evil people on earth go unpunished by man. Idi Amin spent the last 20 years of his life living in unimaginable luxury as a guest of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Hitler went unpunished. Jack the Ripper was never caught. Most of the people involved in the Rwanda genocide (the actual hacking and killing) will never be tried for those murders. President Moi is still walking around free. Mobutu died of old age in France. Many murderers and child molesters are never caught. etc etc etc.

And that's my point. If god forgives a serial rapist and killer who got away with 30 murders and 90 rapes, then essentially that man will go unpunished for his vile sins. He'll be in heaven while some of victims will be in hell. WTF???

[ATLian]

Youngben, your analogy still fails to take into account the fact that the Old Covenant was a temporary one that was fulfilled with the coming of the Messiah.

Ndigila,

why would and all-wise, all-knowing and all-powerful god give us a covenant which he knew wouldn't work (a temporary one), before giving us a better one? What sense does that make? And that is Youngben's point. Man made that change, because a perfect god cannot give us an imperfect covenant.

If god always knew of all the sin that would occur before he brought Christ to earth, why the heck didn't he bring Christ in the days of Adam?

[ATLian]

God being all-loving is also all-just.He does not let his love get in the way of Justice....Christianity also teaches that God is all just.

Ernest,

at times I really wish I had the faith that you Christians have, coz it would make my life so much simpler. Let me explain.

I just gave an example of god doing nothing as a little innocent girl is brutally raped then killed over a 4 day period. I can give you other examples of god doing crazy evil things:

- when he killed all of Jobs children and servants so as to win a stupid bet with a devil, a bet which he had always known he would win since he had always know that Job wouldn't deny him.

- when he drowned every little baby boy and girl in Africa during Noah's flood.

- when he killed all the first born males in Egypt because Pharaoh didn't release the Israelites. This is even crazier when you consider that Pharaoh didn't release them because god intentionally hardened his heart!!!!

- when he burnt to death all the little innocent children in Sodom and Gomorrah because men in those cities were having gay sex

- when he accepted an innocent virgin girl as a human sacrifice

- etc etc etc

As an atheist (and a rational man), I question (like anyone should) what sort of god can do these things? And how can that god still be called all-good and all-loving?

But as a Christian, you turn your back to these painful questions, then thump your chest and shout out loud how good and merciful and loving your god is. You chose to sweep all this stuff under the rug.

It's like the beaten-wife syndrome. The husband beats and cheats on you. You still swear how much you love him, and how much he loves you, and how his beatings are a way of showing you how much he loves you. The whole world can see what a monster he is, but the wife's blinders convince her that she deserves the beatings and that they are good for her.

I just cannot do that. I cannot be the beaten wife, I cannot smile and praise our dictator as he destroys the country, and I won't call a god who does evil things "good, all-loving, all-just and all-merciful". Heck no.

But always asking these questions becomes draining at times, and I sometimes wish I could do like the Christian or battered wife and smile hard and act like all is good. That way I could go to church every Sunday and remind god that despite him doing nothing as Jessica was being raped and killed, I still think he is good, merciful and just. Then with Jessica still on my thoughts, I'd put the life and safety of my daughter in his hands, and pray to him to keep her safe from people like Couey.

It would make my life so much simpler!

[infinitepyro]

Originally Posted by ndigila

So essentially you're saying that the disciple of God incarnate got it wrong?

Wot am sayin is god made Lucifer evil! god (if he exists tht is) is just one sadaistic screen writer writin scripts of self glorification hopin 2 b admired by other gods.

God made sin. God made evrithin. God made lucifer. God made lucifer sinful. simple.

[sosodef]

this whole notion was a total lie? what if our lives are just what they are,total coincidence and when you die you die,what if theres nothing beond life,or if theres life then its just a different world with no rulers? no laws? no creed?

why does religion pressure us to choose sides yet no one knows for sure? what about everyone before christ? you mean they dont count?

[youngben]

Originally Posted by ndigila

Youngben, your analogy still fails to take into account the fact that the Old Covenant was a temporary one that was fulfilled with the coming of the Messiah. Let's say the headmaster uses a bell which he has to ring using his hand, and he was to do this until the school is able to afford a much louder electric bell. The students keep showing up late either because they didn't hear the bell or they were blatantly disobeying it. When the new electric bell is installed, those who show up late have no excuse.

Ngigila thanks for your point of view, that brings me to ask.

1. Then is it expected for the headmaster to continue using the old bell once the new electric bell is acquired?? What do you think would happen if the headmaster continues to use both at the same time??

In context; You say that the New testament fulfils the OT, yet even in church today, clergy still bind the congregation with the OT theosophy. Any valid reason then why we use the OT in modern day christianity (and not for reference only)??

2. They heard the bell alright, they chose to ignore it, there are enough incidences, like when Moses went up the mountain they built a golden calf

3. This argument has just been caught up with events in the last 48 hours, yesterday on Nation Newspaper hardcopy, i saw, that the catholic church has given a new list of what it considers new types of sin (environmental degrardation is there), and basically this has been the gist of my argument. A social problem is woven into a spiritual and religious standpoint. 500 yrs from now, the then practising christians will know Jesus preached against environmental degradation, probably, who knows, a chapter to that effect shall be "unearthed" from a long lost text