[ndigila]

Originally Posted by jasakwa

How do you expect God to intervene when he you failed to involve him in your problems.

I'm not sure how exactly you got this from my post. Please fafanua.

[a.k.a]

Originally Posted by jasakwa

How do you expect God to intervene when he you failed to involve him in your problems.

In the first place it was not a God problem and has nothing to do with God.

[jasakwa]

Originally Posted by ndigila

I'm not sure how exactly you got this from my post. Please fafanua.

Sorry Ndigila,it was actually in response to Atlian,you have quoted him in your answer,sorry.

[jasakwa]

Originally Posted by a.k.a

In the first place it was not a God problem and has nothing to do with God.

a.k.a as a christian am cautioned not to dispise prophecies,and at the same time am warned to be careful about false prophets,but the most undoubted way to confirm the validity of a prophet is when his/her prophecies turn out to be true.

So i agree with you that God has got nothing to do with our conflicts,but he sent a word to warn us to ask for his intervention,only that nobody did care to folow up.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by jasakwa

How do you expect God to intervene when he you failed to involve him in your problems.

So are you honestly saying that those who died deserved to die because they didn't involve god in their problems? Even those 2 year old kiddos who were roasted to death in a church because their parents came from a different tribe from the arsonists? How do you know that the adults who were burnt in that church weren't devout Christians?

And if your logic is to be followed, then every Christian who actively involves god in all is daily life happenings should never ever have any problems!

See why I called that sort of reasoning extremely foolish???????

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by a.k.a

In the first place it was not a God problem and has nothing to do with God.

Exactly. We have groups of people who are so uncivilised that they will kill others for something those others have no control over (their tribe and the results of the elections).

If you still insist on bringing god into this- where has he been during the millions of prayers that have been uttered since the violence begun? Where has he been when 1,000 were being killed? He always always knew that Kibaki rigging the elections would cause this chaos- where was he to stop it? To intercede?

But like I told my Christian pals, you have to be extremely arrogant or delusional to assume that god will come and help Kenya. Remember he stood by and did nothing as Hutus killed 1 million Tutsis in about 2 months. He has stood by and watched as 5 million have died in the Congo wars. He has done nothing as millions have died in Southern Sudan and Darfur over the years, So why the heck would anyone expect him to do something when "only" 1,000 Kenyans have died?????

[jasakwa]

Originally Posted by ATLian

So are you honestly saying that those who died deserved to die because they didn't involve god in their problems? Even those 2 year old kiddos who were roasted to death in a church because their parents came from a different tribe from the arsonists? How do you know that the adults who were burnt in that church weren't devout Christians?

And if your logic is to be followed, then every Christian who actively involves god in all is daily life happenings should never ever have any problems!

See why I called that sort of reasoning extremely foolish???????

No no atlian you are now planting words on me,nobody deserves to die,it is not the will of God that people should die.The debate here is not about God's involvement but his intervention.From bibilical point of view God has always warned people who fear him of impending calamity before it befalls them.The reason prophets speak up is to call upon people to either change their ways or repent and ask for forgiveness.These are meant to invite God's intervention into man's problems.If yonah did not prophesy in the city on ninevah and if teh people of ninevah didnt repent who knows what calamity was about to befall them.

You tend to interpret the bible literally and thats how you miss many lessons in the teachings.You must first seek to understand how God relates to man.Why he gave man dominion and in what instances God intervenes in man's problems.

[ATLian]

Let's assume that God exists, and he gives humans free will, and some humans choose to be bad. If God interferes with the free will because of the action of the bad humans, then are humans really free?

I know we have debated the Free Will thingi extensively on Mashada. I still don't think it is possible to have an all-knowing and all-powerful god co-existing with Free Will.

That said, I can understand god giving us free will to chose whether to wear red or blue shoes on Friday, because that hurts nobody. I can't understand god giving us free will to hurt people against their will (like burning the kids in the church).

To make it worse, any of those kids who died unbaptized (or any kids whose folks were Muslim) will go to hell- while any of those murderous arsonists who says "God I'm sorry" will live forever in paradise. WTF?

[ATLian]

nobody deserves to die,

I disagree. Some people deserve to die long slow painful deaths (Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Hitler, etc). Even your Bible has a very long list of who deserves to die, and instructions on how they should be killed!



it is not the will of God that people should die.

Again I disagree. Everything that happens happens according to god's will and perfect plan. EVERYTHING!




The debate here is not about God's involvement but his intervention.

OK. I think we all agree that if I knew that a mad man was going to storm a kindergarten next week, and slowly kill 50 kids in there, and I did nothing about it, then I am culpable and evil. I'd even be more evil if I watched the mad man actually kill the kids and did nothing about it when I had all the power to stop him. I'd be considered a total basket case if the mad man came to me later on, asked for my forgiveness, then I became his buddy for life.

The funny thing is we give god a clean pass. He knew from Day One about the chaos in kenya yet he did nothing about it. NOTHING! He watched as it happened and did nothing. And he will reward some of those murderers by a lifetime stay in heaven only because they will ask him to forgive them. WTF? Then the Christian comes and tells me that he did nothing because we didn't ask him to do anything about it so the killings are our failt. WTF? Does any rational man have to be asked before he can prevent an evil thing that he knows about from happening? of course not!

God always knew about the killings, yet he did not intervene. He let those little babies who were born in 2006 get roasted to death in a church, and then you try to convinve me that it's because OTHER kenyans did not pray to god in the 1990's! Sheesh!



You tend to interpret the bible literally and thats how you miss many lessons in the teachings.

I think I know when to interpret the Bible literally and when to do it figuratively.

[jasakwa]

I disagree. Some people deserve to die long slow painful deaths (Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Hitler, etc). Even your Bible has a very long list of who deserves to die, and instructions on how they should be killed!

I Disagree completely,as long as people get the chance to repent,and turn their ways,they have every right to be forgiven.Even the judge who judges in court has a myriad of sins.So is the hangman.For example the thief who asked for forgiveness from our Lord and Savior Jesus christ,he was forgiven instantly and caught up in paradise later.



Again I disagree. Everything that happens happens according to god's will and perfect plan. EVERYTHING!

I chose to disagree with you again,do you mean God knew about the coming violence in kenya or you are suggesting God was behind it?havent you read that Satan came to decieve,dteal and destroy souls?When satan plans to devour sometimes he seeks reason to support his aurguement,and he knows that where people have repented and live righteously God's protection is upon them.Its unfortunate that our arguement has to bring in victims of the violence,but for sure atlian you do not know for sure what kind of relationship those people had with God and whether they called upon him,and even why he never intervened to stop the assailants.


OK. I think we all agree that if I knew that a mad man was going to storm a kindergarten next week, and slowly kill 50 kids in there, and I did nothing about it, then I am culpable and evil. I'd even be more evil if I watched the mad man actually kill the kids and did nothing about it when I had all the power to stop him. I'd be considered a total basket case if the mad man came to me later on, asked for my forgiveness, then I became his buddy for life.

When you have provided a way for man to live forever more,you have reserved a day for judgement of all souls,death to you is nothing but a slumber,then you can get a glimpse of all the situation.God used to be involved in man's day to day activities,but after rebelion,God kept his distance,man has been given laws of how to live righteously and still failed,God then offered his son to break the curse of death so that man can live again forever.If the kids in the kindagarten you are refering to are covered by God's protection then the mad man wont even cross that kindagarten gate,if there ae enough true worshipers out there,the mad man wouldnt be mad because the madness would have been healed long time.Atlian satan is active in people to steal,kill,and destroy.


The funny thing is we give god a clean pass. He knew from Day One about the chaos in kenya yet he did nothing about it. NOTHING! He watched as it happened and did nothing. And he will reward some of those murderers by a lifetime stay in heaven only because they will ask him to forgive them. WTF? Then the Christian comes and tells me that he did nothing because we didn't ask him to do anything about it so the killings are our failt. WTF? Does any rational man have to be asked before he can prevent an evil thing that he knows about from happening? of course not!

You being an atheist think only within the time frame of your life span on earth.But God's thoughts surpases those,kenya leaders are to blame for the problems,kenyan people are victims of a tyrrant regime,christians had an obligation to intervene in prayers and seek forgiveness to invite God's intervention.The people who did the murders will be judged one single day.It will be counted a sin for christians who heard the calls for repentance and ignored it.


God always knew about the killings, yet he did not intervene. He let those little babies who were born in 2006 get roasted to death in a church, and then you try to convinve me that it's because OTHER kenyans did not pray to god in the 1990's! Sheesh!

You are just trying to protect man and the devil by planting al the blames on God.The church was burnt by people not angels,so dont blame God.We cannot just blame him for the calamities when we don't want to do anything with him,we have rejected his ways and compromised his teachings.