Is Africa the Problem? or the Problem Africans?

[t.D.A.]

Originally Posted by HUH?

good point t.D.A, but i'd argue that China employs the same rought education regimen, and yet their economy is at double-digit growth. An archaic (IMO) education system is the problem. we've always relied on the "help" of westerners in the design of our education system(s). For once the country/continent has to come-up with something better, more original than what we've got for sure.

I have been talking with people who came from Kenya and they were explaining to me how in Singapore there are about four tribes - Indians, Chinese, Malay, Singaporeans (there may be more, this is all I can remember). The Singapore government ( btw as we all know, Singapore freed itself from British colonial chains the same time we did) which is essentially a dictatorship designed the country such that the strengths of each group of people were understood, taught and leveraged for the prosperity of the nation as opposed to our country where it's used as a division tool. But I digress............

Interesting point about China. Personally I must say I much prefer the greater independence of intellect of Western education. However, I think what China, the States and these other Western nations have in terms of their education is the intention of increasing the national prosperity. As per my understanding, our governments in Africa don't really have much of a forward-thinking purpose behind our education.

As to the idea that Africa is nothing without Westerners. First of all, it's not entirely true. After all we had examples before colonialism of successful (though brutal empires) such as the wealthy Ashanti Kingdom of Ghana ( a lot of their wealth came about through trade with the Brits but apparently before colonization they were on par with the Japanese Empire) and Botswana ( I dunno a lick about Namibia to be honest, I must learn a bit more). In addition to that Type R is right, the intention behind colonization was never our development. As I have stated a couple of times one of the key distinctions between us and the developing nations is a clear vision and idea of what the objectives are and the colonizers was pretty much to exploit Africa as much as possible as cheaply as possible. Now of course this has brought about and is bringing about huge problems right now such as climate change, resources running out etc etc so the Western consumption model is far from ideal.

I pretty much restate the point that we need to sit down and craft our own vision for the continent and go through the hardest part of committing to daily collective action until it happens. All we really need is a few really committed people to begin to move a nation forward.

[Type R]

Originally Posted by deliriumtremens

The longer a African country has been independent, the more problems it has. Haiti had been independent for 200 years. At the time when they won independence, blacks massacred all the whites and mixed-race people who did not escape the island. Today the island is the poster child of mismanagement of the economy, government, criminal justice and everything else. The only time the island and its economy were stabilized was during the several American interventions when Haitians ran their country into the ground and could not continue without foreign help.

How could you?????!!!! If I meet you, I will be a danger to your physical safety.

Why are you bringing up Haiti in a discussion on Africa? Just because they are also Negroes??? This borders upon racism! Are you black yourself?

Furthermore, it is very unfair to discuss the descendants of slaves when you know what unimaginable trauma they went through, for hundreds of years. When family and social structures are destroyed, when morals are allowed to collapse, it is actually quite amazing that any could survive without all becoming suicidal drug addicts and drunkards to escape depression.

I am not providing excuses. If you want to go racial, then here we go. Listen, and listen carefully.

The country with the highest GDP per capita in the world is a black country.

I repeat, the country with the highest GDP per capita in the world is a black country.

Please repeat after me, children: the country with the highest GDP per capita in the world is a black country.

It's name, dear children, is Bermuda. Not far away from the "poster child of mismanagement of the economy, government, criminal justice and everything else." Its income per capita is US$69,900.

For comparison's sake, per capitas: USA: $41,600, Canada: $33,900, France: 29,600, South Korea: 22,600, South Africa $12,000, Kenya: $1100.

If you quote wretched Haiti (income per capita $1700), you must be fair and quote their successful Caribbean black neighbours: -

Bermuda: 69,000 (#1)
Cayman Islands, $43,800 (#4)
British Virgin Islands: $38,500 (#8)
Aruba: $21,800 (#42)
Bahamas: 20,200 (#46)
Barbados: $17,300 (#55)
Trinidad & Tobago 16,800 (#56)
Martinique 14,400 (#60)
Antigua & Barbuda 10,900 (#75)

As you can see, the heightened publicity "enjoyed" by Haiti is nothing more than a racist smear campaign against black people. It's like using Albania or Serbia/Kosovo as the poster child of the white race/Europe. Come on!!!

[HUH?]

You raise good points delirium, but i am obliged to say that i have some fundamental disagreements with some of your statements....

Originally Posted by deliriumtremens

it makes me sick to the bone that we africans have to blame whites for all our self inflicted misery's. Open your eyes and look at what we truly are.., i believe colonization made africa wealthier because it introduced modernity and good management to the dark continent. Before colonization much of sub-saharan africa was literally stuck in the stone age. The most advanced parts of black africa were still in the iron age. Africans had no written language, no concept of science or math, no multistory buildings, no calendar, nothing that would remind one of any modern society.

here i'd ask what is the definition of colonization to you? colonize main entry: col·o·nize pronunciation: \ˈkä-lə-ˌnīz\ function: verb inflected form(s): col·o·nized; col·o·niz·ing date: 1622 transitive verb 1 a: to establish a colony in or on or of <colonize an island> b: to establish in a colony <the rights of colonized people> 2: to send illegal or irregularly qualified voters into <colonizing doubtful districts> 3: to infiltrate with usually subversive militants for propaganda and strategy reasons <colonize industries> intransitive verb : to make or establish a colony : settle — col·o·niz·er noun from dictionary and thesaurus - merriam-webster online


"before colonization much of sub-saharan africa was literally stuck in the stone age."

your statement here is false. For this, i'll refer you to Dr. Chancellor william's book, destruction of black civilization : great issues of a race from 4500 b.c to 2000 a.d.

this one too alexander the great and the hellenistic world: macedonian imperialism and the hellenization of the east.

this is another myth. Peel the wool before your eyes and explore a book by basil david entitled, "african genuis"

no. Africans put value on different compensatory structures. Wealth is relative... Material wealth is a very western trait. The hedonistic, narcissitic culture that crops out of advanced capitalist states is alien to most african ways, be it in economy or wherever.... Also remember, when european powers left, they left insurmountable power vacuums. As type r said, (i'm paraphrasing here) "the goal of colonization was not for the advancement of blacks."



the longer a african country has been independent, the more problems it has. Haiti had been independent for 200 years. At the time when they won independence, blacks massacred all the whites and mixed-race people who did not escape the island. Today the island is the poster child of mismanagement of the economy, government, criminal justice and everything else. The only time the island and its economy were stabilized was during the several american interventions when haitians ran their country into the ground and could not continue without foreign help.


haiti is a unique problem. The plantations owned by the colonial powers caused significant environmental degredation which left arable land almost non-existent. This couldn't even allow haiti to move from an agricultural state ( a major prerequisite to most capitalists societies) to an industrial one. This is one viewpoint shared widely among haitain cultural anthropologists...yours of course is another one. And to recommend a good analysis of the aforementioned is a book called, "reinterpreting the haitian revolution and its cultural aftershocks" by martin munroe and elizabeth walcott-hackshaw

ethiopia is another basket-case. Images of ethiopian children dying from starvation on the filthy streets of addis ababa are forever burnt into our collective memory. The country was never colonized and foreign occupation lasted only 5 years.


they were colonized. Maybe not in your definition of colonialism, but in the 1930's when italy invaded and occupied ethiopia during 1931-1936 ethiopia's determination not to be colonized, coupled with the pressures of world war ii on italy, forced italy out of ethiopia once more (many countries tried,but to no avail...and you are not proud of this as an african?). Haile sellassie continued to reinvigorate the state. However, the economic benefits were not reaching the peasantry and the working classes, and they eventually rebelled and overthrew haile sellassie in 1974. And that ended the history of the ethiopian monarchy. Last time i looked britain still retains a monarchy.hmmm

to be continued...

[deliriumtremens]

Originally Posted by Type R

How could you?????!!!! If I meet you, I will be a danger to your physical safety.

Why are you bringing up Haiti in a discussion on Africa? Just because they are also Negroes??? This borders upon racism! Are you black yourself?

Furthermore, it is very unfair to discuss the descendants of slaves when you know what unimaginable trauma they went through, for hundreds of years. When family and social structures are destroyed, when morals are allowed to collapse, it is actually quite amazing that any could survive without all becoming suicidal drug addicts and drunkards to escape depression.

I am not providing excuses. If you want to go racial, then here we go. Listen, and listen carefully.

The country with the highest GDP per capita in the world is a black country.

I repeat, the country with the highest GDP per capita in the world is a black country.

Please repeat after me, children: the country with the highest GDP per capita in the world is a black country.

It's name, dear children, is Bermuda. Not far away from the "poster child of mismanagement of the economy, government, criminal justice and everything else." Its income per capita is US$69,900.

For comparison's sake, per capitas: USA: $41,600, Canada: $33,900, France: 29,600, South Korea: 22,600, South Africa $12,000, Kenya: $1100.

If you quote wretched Haiti (income per capita $1700), you must be fair and quote their successful Caribbean black neighbours: -

Bermuda: 69,000 (#1)
Cayman Islands, $43,800 (#4)
British Virgin Islands: $38,500 (#8)
Aruba: $21,800 (#42)
Bahamas: 20,200 (#46)
Barbados: $17,300 (#55)
Trinidad & Tobago 16,800 (#56)
Martinique 14,400 (#60)
Antigua & Barbuda 10,900 (#75)

As you can see, the heightened publicity "enjoyed" by Haiti is nothing more than a racist smear campaign against black people. It's like using Albania or Serbia/Kosovo as the poster child of the white race/Europe. Come on!!!

I have no doubt that you would be a danger to my physical safety (are you Kenyan?) but unfortunately for you am hiding behind a computer that is much bigger than yours...
The racist seems to be you. Why else would you ask me whether am black? Does my skin color has anything to do with my post?


"Why are you bringing up Haiti in a discussion on Africa? Just because they are also Negroes???"

Why are you bringing up Bermuda in a discussion on Africa? Just because they are also Negroes???


"I am not providing excuses. If you want to go racial, then here we go. Listen, and listen carefully"


The country's with the highest GDP per capita in the world

1 Luxembourg
2 Norway
3 Qatar

Bermuda IS TERRITORY OF THE UK!!!!

Population: black 54.8%, white 34.1%, mixed 6.4%, other races 4.3%

As you can see, it's a mixed society and you helped me to prove my point - Thank you


Bermuda was first settled in 1609 by shipwrecked English colonists headed for Virginia. Tourism to the island to escape North American winters first developed in Victorian times. Tourism continues to be important to the island's economy, although international business has overtaken it in recent years. Bermuda has developed into a highly successful offshore financial center. Although a referendum on independence from the UK was soundly defeated in 1995, the present government has reopened debate on the issue.

Bermuda enjoys the highest per capita income in the world, more than 50% higher than that of the US. Its economy is primarily based on providing financial services for international business and luxury facilities for tourists




Repeat after me, Bermuda is British

[Type R]

OK, I've cooled down by this point. Excuse my accusations and outburst.

Points on Bermuda humbly accepted (some, not all). You brought up Haiti yourself, so I had to check the other Caribbean countries.


Bermuda Head of Government (=Prime Minister), Ewart Brown


Governor Richard Gozney

What about all the others? Your point on "African-run economies going downwards consistently" or something to that effect -- cannot stand.

[Type R]

In terms of averages, there is a school of thought that holds that there are two averages towards which African economies tend to converge: -

- the African average, $1000-ish per capita: (Benin, Cameroon, Cape Verde, Djibouti, Egypt, Ghana, Kenya, Mali, Uganda and Zimbabwe

- the USA average ($20,000+): Cape Verde, Egypt, Mauritius, Seychelles and Tunisia

[deliriumtremens]

Originally Posted by Type R

OK, I've cooled down by this point. Excuse my accusations and outburst.

Points on Bermuda humbly accepted (some, not all). You brought up Haiti yourself, so I had to check the other Caribbean countries.

What about all the others? Your point on "African-run economies going downwards consistently" or something to that effect -- cannot stand.

No worries bro, I sometiomes get carried away too...

I didn't made it clear that I meant sub Saharan Africa. (Huh's brilliant post got me on that)

I'm certainly no racist when I say that black African Countries suffer from economical and infrastructural disasters.

Ok, let's have a look at Zimbabwe ( I know it's worst case and not applicable to most others) it's surely is the latest proof of unfit "African Leadership"

How about South Africa? Not only the crime rate has doubled since Mbekis rule but also economy and the value of the Rand stagnated signifficantly.
Fifa is even considering revoking the 2010 WM finals.
Google "Zuma" and you will know where SA is heading...

Can you show me one African country that has a non-kleptomanic Government using taxes or even aid for the well being of their citizens or improvement of infrastructure?

Kenya is not better than any of them, especially now. Our leaders are a bunch of power hungry individuals that don't give F*** about wananchi.
Moi Kibaki, Raider Odinga...you know their names.

Please also read the article by Elias Biryabarema from were I got the following quote:

"Just about every reason-from slavery, colonialism, neo-colonialism to inequitable world trade rules-cited for the backwardness of Black African nations has been so debunked by time that it has now become necessary to look beyond the realm of such contemporary explanations. The maddening inertia of Black people and the mystical forces that keep tamping down our nations, in fact, seem to have their roots deep within us, not from without as has been argued for decades"

http://allafrica.com/stories/200702061131.html

I do not believe in a mono ethic society since the USA, UK, Holland etc. have proven that the sum of multiple races and ethnicities largely contributed to their own growth - Imagine, USA without Indians (no Microsoft), Italians (FOOD!!!), Germans (Rocket science) and of course Africans (sports achievements)

Please proof me wrong, I would like nothing more than that!

[deliriumtremens]

Originally Posted by HUH?

You raise good points delirium, but i am obliged to say that i have some fundamental disagreements with some of your statements....



to be continued...

An outstanding post Huh, please gimme time to have a look at Cheikh Anta Diop's work before I reply - i wanna make sure not to be mistaken again

[reilly]

Originally Posted by atabong

this question i ask myself every day. Can there be any reasonable explanation to why we africans are so poor, so backward, so underprivileged, so left behind? so beggarly and so looked upon as bull****? some one said to me: look if our people had not colonized you guys you’d still be going around naked and killing each other with spears. First the western people were here exploring and exploiting, dragging us in chains out to the plantations in the west. They created an outcry then change the method. They bring religion, divide us, and create wars, poverty, disease, ignorance, hunger and starvation and so nowadays we have neocolonialism. Our people no longer have to be carried away bare feet and in chains but flee to the west to do slave labour. Are our leaders so dumb, so inhuman, really do black african leaders think at all, let alone have a ‘conscience’? the chinese and asians are slowly but surely seeping in too. Does black africa have any way to protect itself from these invaders? we are gradually seeing our lands, forests, property etc bought over with the same money that is taken from our land and the proceeds pushed back to the invaders by our own leaders. Sub saharan africa economies are the worst on the planet, does it mean we cannot manufacture and consume our own products? why do we have to starve and die in a land oozing with oil and diamonds? in fact the big powers don't even need to wage a war to get in. We pass around town and find shelved bottled water imported from holland, france etc we read and watch western and foreign media, googgle out 'sub saharan africa' on the internet and we’re dumfounded with what we see. In the west, the only thing most people know of africa is on their outright racist news channels, big billboards showing fleshless black men and women overpowered by disease, houseflies hovering over starving children. Even black people living in the west are demoralized. No body knows what to do, isn’t it time for us as africans to portray the good we have? really, is africa the problem or the problem africans? can some one say something

this may seem crazy but i dare say all this technology we see nowadays is not entirely normal human brain power.not everyone is human.key words:jordan maxwell,maritime law,david ickes;freedom from fascism.

[Atabong]

Originally Posted by reilly

this may seem crazy but i dare say all this technology we see nowadays is not entirely normal human brain power.not everyone is human.key words:jordan maxwell,maritime law,david ickes;freedom from fascism.

I'm not sure what you are getting at Reilly. Are you insinuating some form of superstition? Are you saying that some human beings are either not human at all or more equal than others? Please rationalize your points, are you talking of extra-terrestrial beings? You got me all confused!!