Is Africa the Problem? or the Problem Africans?

[HUH?]

Originally Posted by deliriumtremens

"Just about every reason-from slavery, colonialism, neo-colonialism to inequitable world trade rules-cited for the backwardness of Black African nations has been so debunked by time that it has now become necessary to look beyond the realm of such contemporary explanations. The maddening inertia of Black people and the mystical forces that keep tamping down our nations, in fact, seem to have their roots deep within us, not from without as has been argued for decades"

http://allafrica.com/stories/200702061131.html



interesting argument, but it's disregarding the psychological residue of opression (and surely the negro has had more than his share of that). splitting Africa IMO was one of the root causes. the negative (and postitive)effects of territorial division on the African continent is undeniable. read up on Cecil Rhodes' ambitions and you'll see the problem facing Zimbawe at this time as an aftershock of ruthless British rule in the then Rhodesia (ahh! now you see where the name comes from!) coupled with a senile (maniacle?) president. history time:Cattle were important to the Ndebele tribe (i assume you grasp the value of cattle especially to pastoralist communities), yet there was a systematic erradication of them by the british in order to force the Ndebele into subserviance. but lo and behold the Ndebele hooked up with the Shona (their arch rivals) to fight against the british. unfortunately the shona sold-out the Ndebele and surrendered to the British. For this the Ndebele never forgave the Shona. just a little African history....

the argument above assumes that less than a century is enough to level the playing field if you will by somehow erradicating all effects of millenial opression. I humbly beg to differ.

the late great Dr. Hendrik Clark pointed out that the colonial (from 3000 BC-- 20th century) powers did such a superb job of it that it became self-perpetuating i.e, without active involvement of the colonial powers. this shows that a psychological effect took place. put an animal and its offspring in a cage for generations on end and see how it turns out when you "release" it/them.




I do not believe in a mono ethic society since the USA, UK, Holland etc. have proven that the sum of multiple races and ethnicities largely contributed to their own growth - Imagine, USA without Indians (no Microsoft), Italians (FOOD!!!), Germans (Rocket science) and of course Africans (sports achievements)

Please proof me wrong, I would like nothing more than that!



here you go again...sports achievements? is that the only thing you can think (or sadly, know) of ?. Actually the US would be nothing without blacks. you are forgetting that the Americas enjoyed slave labour (read:tax free, unregulated labour) for almost 400 years. Any country with a labour force of that magnitude and duration would have a robust economy. if you are good in math/economics you can come up with some startling figures for a GDP that arose purely from slave labour within that time-frame. i'll see what i can do and come up with some numbers for you...

you raise good points delirium. unfortunatley i'm not buying most of them

[Atabong]

Originally Posted by deliriumtremens

It makes me sick to the bone that we Africans have to blame Whites for all our self inflicted misery's. Open your eyes and look at what we truly are..,

I believe Colonization made Africa wealthier because it introduced modernity and good management to the Dark Continent. Before colonization much of sub-Saharan Africa was literally stuck in the Stone Age. The most advanced parts of Black Africa were still in the Iron Age. Africans had no written language, no concept of science or math, no multistory buildings, no calendar, nothing that would remind one of any modern society.

Prior to colonization, African's were never anywhere near as wealthy as they were during European rule. When the white powers left, African economies collapsed.

The longer a African country has been independent, the more problems it has. Haiti had been independent for 200 years. At the time when they won independence, blacks massacred all the whites and mixed-race people who did not escape the island. Today the island is the poster child of mismanagement of the economy, government, criminal justice and everything else. The only time the island and its economy were stabilized was during the several American interventions when Haitians ran their country into the ground and could not continue without foreign help.

Ethiopia is another basket-case. Images of Ethiopian children dying from starvation on the filthy streets of Addis Ababa are forever burnt into our collective memory. The country was never colonized and foreign occupation lasted only 5 years.

The wealthiest African countries got independence recently. South Africa was taken over by Africans only in 1994 after many generations of apartheid. Namibia received independence in 1990.

The longer an African country had been run by Africans, the poorer it is. As a government official from the Democratic Republic of Congo acknowledged a couple years ago, “we are moving back into the cave.”

The excuse commonly used is that colonialism was replaced by “neo-colonialism”, which is even more severe, causing greater poverty.

The claim is so ridiculous that it can’t even be backed up by any logical reason. We must state the conclusion and accept it on pseudo-religious grounds. To suggest that Africans have less power now that the colonial governors and military forces withdrew is an equivalent of saying that a man who moved out of his parents’ house, has his own job and his own family is under more influence from his parents than he was as a child when the parents could completely dominate his life.

We are told that Europeans who are now in London, Paris and Lisbon have more power over Africa than they did when they were in Brazzaville (Congo), Abuja (Nigeria) and Lusaka (Zambia). The claim is simply preposterous.

We are also told that whites who remained in Africa and kept their dominant positions are to blame. Yet, the only African countries with stable governance and economics are those that gave their whites disproportionate power. Amongst them are Kenya and South Africa. Where the white minority lost its power, the economy collapsed. The latest example of that was seen in recent years in Zimbabwe where the government confiscated by force the land of the white farmers, destroying the economy and forcing millions of the country’s blacks to eat rats or nothing at all.

Nor can we blame whites for taking natural resources out of Africa. For one, before colonization blacks did not know what to do with oil, diamonds and other resources. Without white technology and customers, the natural resources would be largely useless. More importantly, the overwhelming majority of gold, diamonds and oil in Africa were discovered either after independence or in the very last few years of colonization. Lastly, many countries without natural resources are extremely successful, including Japan.

African poverty is the fault of the African people. The myth that the “Darker the Berry, the Sweeter the Juice”, and therefore minorities are never to blame for any of their troubles, and whites are the source of all things that are wrong with the world must be rejected.

This post is a COPY AND PASTE job; the original author is a WHITE SUPREMACIST (Guy white: whttp://www.globalpolitician.com/23759-poverty) who probably knows nothing about 'Africa before Colonization' His naive narrative is a classical example of History lessons taught in Western classrooms even as we now speak.

He seems to paint an idiot’s picture of Africa standing at one spot from the time of pre-colonization till now if colonization had never happened.Slavery, colonization, oppression, neo-colonialism, bad publicity has undeniable left a persisting SCAR on the BLACK MAN’S psyche.

Deliriumtremens should bring out more ideas ‘of his own’ and stop acting like a ‘black gateman in a white neighborhood’

[youngben]

Am home to roost

Theres nothing that I love than seeing the philosophical arguments on the problem with Africans, there are so many angles to it that you can defend and argue about.

Heres my contribution:

Africans have never been the problem:

The case of Africa is one where a child has been forced into adulthood, and then judged by the same adults who have pushed him up as a non achiever. The history of the west (Europeans and by extension Americans) starts almost 1000 yrs ago. Like water being decanted, those societies have gone through a lot to be what they are. They have exterminated each other, been wiped out by plagues etc etc.

Africa has not had the opportunity to have unifying pressures, good and bad, for a better understanding you need to actually start by studying European as well as Asian and Oriental history, you quickly see a pattern, yes, the existence of totalitarianism, the dictator has been the single influencer in this societies through time, an individual who has the power to think as a unit and the will to do so. You can include Egyptian and Mayan historys too. The dictator cannot be downplayed even in modern society, Do you really believe America is a democracy? Do you believe there is freedom of speech in America? Do Americans actually elect a president? Am sure these questions will spawn interesting answers.

Africans have never been given the chance to think like Africans, to develop with the strength of their culture, probably you question yourself why Nyerere insisted on Swahili, that will be apparent in due course, but we can immediately see the unifying aspect if we juxtapose to the current Kenya situation.

Ask yourself this - When we look at developed countries, what is the one thing that we notice, that is not in third world countries. Again yes, a unifying culture topped with a language. Do Japanese care about English – No you learn Japanese to trade with them. What about Chinese? Alright what of the Arabs? Maybe the Germans? Lets try the Swedes now, the finns? The portugese?

Now let us look at the once big promising economies that adopted other languages as their own and as business language, lets see the development, India, Africa?? (In Africa, lets look at the countries that have stuck to a language for more than 200 yrs and use it as a business language – libya, Morocco, Egypt, Ethiopia, Compare that to Anglo and Francophone countries(sic). Lets check out south America, brazil, Paraguay etc etc.

What about emerging markets, do they care about other languages that much? Filipinos, Taiwanese, Singapore? etc

I know its not easy to pick up, but from a sociological point of view, this is just but one reason why Africans seem to have a problem, neo colonialism.

When you go to school, is it that you are stupid or is it that your mind is being modelled to think in a particular way? Of the billionaires in the world, how many finished school? Would you say they are successful because they never got the chance to be “modelled” they thought outside the box. Have you noticed the more you’re “learned” the more you are ashamed of being an African? How about the “learned” not hanging out with the unlearned?

I have touched on 3 issues Atabong:
History
Language
Education

Am hoping I will have the time to be more clearer, coz everything is just mixed up here,

Poleni for the long post

[HALLO moto]

Originally Posted by atabong

this question i ask myself every day. Can there be any reasonable explanation to why we africans are so poor, so backward, so underprivileged, so left behind? so beggarly and so looked upon as bull****? some one said to me: look if our people had not colonized you guys you’d still be going around naked and killing each other with spears. First the western people were here exploring and exploiting, dragging us in chains out to the plantations in the west. They created an outcry then change the method. They bring religion, divide us, and create wars, poverty, disease, ignorance, hunger and starvation and so nowadays we have neocolonialism. Our people no longer have to be carried away bare feet and in chains but flee to the west to do slave labour. Are our leaders so dumb, so inhuman, really do black african leaders think at all, let alone have a ‘conscience’? the chinese and asians are slowly but surely seeping in too. Does black africa have any way to protect itself from these invaders? we are gradually seeing our lands, forests, property etc bought over with the same money that is taken from our land and the proceeds pushed back to the invaders by our own leaders. Sub saharan africa economies are the worst on the planet, does it mean we cannot manufacture and consume our own products? why do we have to starve and die in a land oozing with oil and diamonds? in fact the big powers don't even need to wage a war to get in. We pass around town and find shelved bottled water imported from holland, france etc we read and watch western and foreign media, googgle out 'sub saharan africa' on the internet and we’re dumfounded with what we see. In the west, the only thing most people know of africa is on their outright racist news channels, big billboards showing fleshless black men and women overpowered by disease, houseflies hovering over starving children. Even black people living in the west are demoralized. No body knows what to do, isn’t it time for us as africans to portray the good we have? really, is africa the problem or the problem africans? can some one say something

hey my friend...we africans have very very very low iq....i have heard afriend of mine who is from my tribe saying somethings that i personaly as afriend for alongtime and atribesman decided that i dont think i wanna hang around him anymore...nd yes i've heard alot of these from many black africans..we are cursed.

[youngben]

Originally Posted by deliriumtremens

It makes me sick to the bone that we Africans have to blame Whites for all our self inflicted misery's. Open your eyes and look at what we truly are..,

I believe Colonization made Africa wealthier because it introduced modernity and good management to the Dark Continent. Before colonization much of sub-Saharan Africa was literally stuck in the Stone Age. The most advanced parts of Black Africa were still in the Iron Age. Africans had no written language, no concept of science or math, no multistory buildings, no calendar, nothing that would remind one of any modern society.


The longer an African country had been run by Africans, the poorer it is. As a government official from the Democratic Republic of Congo acknowledged a couple years ago, “we are moving back into the cave.”

The excuse commonly used is that colonialism was replaced by “neo-colonialism”, which is even more severe, causing greater poverty.

Already this post has elicited too many responses, so I will not flog it too much. Am sure you are familiar with the divide and rule tactic, only this time implement between the have and have nots.

Keep this at the back of your mind, currently if you give as much as 30 cents to a terrorist group, you will be tracked to your house. Meaning money can be watched and traced.

Now scenario: A european nation gives lets say Kenya a USD 10 million loan, along with conditions that will see almost 33% being paid to their consultants. Politician A and civil servant B, grab the monies and take it back to a bank in Europe - about USD 5 million (very traceable). 3 years down the line, the European country wants its money back, meanwhile, politician A and Civil servant B, have multiple entry visas if not citinzenship to freely spend the money in europe buying trinkets, Kenya pays back USD 13million (with interest) of money it never used.

Your question should be, why did europeans develop faster than Africans?,

[Ilongi]

For fear of sounding simplistic, ever wondered why at an individual level no one and I repeat no one (Indian/ Asian, White or whatever) can defeat them in almost any task/ goal/ achievement or whatever you would like to undertake!!
I mean are our brothers and sisters ARE doing very well at an international level? in all corporations? decision makers, strategists etc etc

BUT, try and accomplish anything as group or society, oh! lawdy lord chaos.

Quick question " whats harder than Calculus?" "BLACK UNITY"

Majangwa are you reading this?

[Type R]

Originally Posted by Atabong

This post is a COPY AND PASTE job; the original author is a WHITE SUPREMACIST (Guy white: whttp://www.globalpolitician.com/23759-poverty) who probably knows nothing about 'Africa before Colonization' His naive narrative is a classical example of History lessons taught in Western classrooms even as we now speak.

He seems to paint an idiot’s picture of Africa standing at one spot from the time of pre-colonization till now if colonization had never happened.Slavery, colonization, oppression, neo-colonialism, bad publicity has undeniable left a persisting SCAR on the BLACK MAN’S psyche.

Deliriumtremens should bring out more ideas ‘of his own’ and stop acting like a ‘black gateman in a white neighborhood’

Thank you so much, Atabong. There was something about the article that made me uneasy. It had a feel of a mentality that I had seen before, outside Kenya. It had a current of hostility. That's why I asked the Deliriumtremens whether he was black.

There are people who are known in French as "semeurs de zizanie." Their only job is to sow seeds of discord. They look for weak spots and hit exactly there in order to infuriate, provoke and enrage. They can never see two sides of an argument. They only respond to points that heighten the argument, and never accept anything that compromises their point of view.

Deliriumtremens is clever enough to rectify some outdated information I had about Luxembourg and not Bermuda having #1 GDP per capita. That shows a degree of erudition. Then the same person asks, "Can you show me one African country that has a non-kleptomanic Government using taxes or even aid for the well being of their citizens or improvement of infrastructure?" This is a question he can answer himself, unless he doesn't want to!!!

I have even discussed in this very thread four developing African countries, one of which has a solid consistent track record dating back to 1966, and he still has the nerve to ask the above question.

Being black is no guarantee against being an anti-black racist, just as there are Jewish Anti-Semites.

The problem is the mass media - if an African country is peaceful and well-managed, they will not report it.

[Type R]

Originally Posted by Ilongi

For fear of sounding simplistic, ever wondered why at an individual level no one and I repeat no one (Indian/ Asian, White or whatever) can defeat them in almost any task/ goal/ achievement or whatever you would like to undertake!!
I mean are our brothers and sisters ARE doing very well at an international level? in all corporations? decision makers, strategists etc etc

BUT, try and accomplish anything as group or society, oh! lawdy lord chaos.

Quick question " whats harder than Calculus?" "BLACK UNITY"

Majangwa are you reading this?

Bulls-eye, Ilongi! You hit the head on the nail!!!

This is a problem that has troubled me for a long time, and I alluded to it earlier in this thread.

Black people are united only when they are poor, oppressed and suffering. Give an African some small amount of money and he goes into denial about his people! Many successful blacks in the West are loners. In Kenya, many middle/upper class people do not want to know their Ushago problems at all.

[Luoliability]

Originally Posted by atabong

this question i ask myself every day. Can there be any reasonable explanation to why we africans are so poor, so backward, so underprivileged, so left behind? so beggarly and so looked upon as bull****? some one said to me: look if our people had not colonized you guys you’d still be going around naked and killing each other with spears. First the western people were here exploring and exploiting, dragging us in chains out to the plantations in the west. They created an outcry then change the method. They bring religion, divide us, and create wars, poverty, disease, ignorance, hunger and starvation and so nowadays we have neocolonialism. Our people no longer have to be carried away bare feet and in chains but flee to the west to do slave labour. Are our leaders so dumb, so inhuman, really do black african leaders think at all, let alone have a ‘conscience’? the chinese and asians are slowly but surely seeping in too. Does black africa have any way to protect itself from these invaders? we are gradually seeing our lands, forests, property etc bought over with the same money that is taken from our land and the proceeds pushed back to the invaders by our own leaders. Sub saharan africa economies are the worst on the planet, does it mean we cannot manufacture and consume our own products? why do we have to starve and die in a land oozing with oil and diamonds? in fact the big powers don't even need to wage a war to get in. We pass around town and find shelved bottled water imported from holland, france etc we read and watch western and foreign media, googgle out 'sub saharan africa' on the internet and we’re dumfounded with what we see. In the west, the only thing most people know of africa is on their outright racist news channels, big billboards showing fleshless black men and women overpowered by disease, houseflies hovering over starving children. Even black people living in the west are demoralized. No body knows what to do, isn’t it time for us as africans to portray the good we have? really, is africa the problem or the problem africans? can some one say something

africa is a place and i know it is not the problem. Israelis have turned their desert into farms. There is water under the sahara, plenty of water! the only place that can be a problem is hell when i read about it in the bible as explained by god. How could africa the cradle of civilization be the problem? the stewards are not good. Do not look at others. What have you done? as long as there are people who think that anything and evrything done by white people, said by white people is the best and solution, then africans will remain worse off. Can you give examples where african resources have not benefitted africans but others even though they come from africa. We behave like that cooking pot that always cooks but never eats anything but gets worn out to never be used again or be recycled and used for something else.

[bible_reader]

Originally Posted by atabong

this question i ask myself every day. Can there be any reasonable explanation to why we africans are so poor, so backward, so underprivileged, so left behind? so beggarly and so looked upon as bull****? some one said to me: look if our people had not colonized you guys you’d still be going around naked and killing each other with spears. First the western people were here exploring and exploiting, dragging us in chains out to the plantations in the west. They created an outcry then change the method. They bring religion, divide us, and create wars, poverty, disease, ignorance, hunger and starvation and so nowadays we have neocolonialism. Our people no longer have to be carried away bare feet and in chains but flee to the west to do slave labour. Are our leaders so dumb, so inhuman, really do black african leaders think at all, let alone have a ‘conscience’? the chinese and asians are slowly but surely seeping in too. Does black africa have any way to protect itself from these invaders? we are gradually seeing our lands, forests, property etc bought over with the same money that is taken from our land and the proceeds pushed back to the invaders by our own leaders. Sub saharan africa economies are the worst on the planet, does it mean we cannot manufacture and consume our own products? why do we have to starve and die in a land oozing with oil and diamonds? in fact the big powers don't even need to wage a war to get in. We pass around town and find shelved bottled water imported from holland, france etc we read and watch western and foreign media, googgle out 'sub saharan africa' on the internet and we’re dumfounded with what we see. In the west, the only thing most people know of africa is on their outright racist news channels, big billboards showing fleshless black men and women overpowered by disease, houseflies hovering over starving children. Even black people living in the west are demoralized. No body knows what to do, isn’t it time for us as africans to portray the good we have? really, is africa the problem or the problem africans? can some one say something

the bible says in hosea 4,that my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge,to be honest africans have not handled change liberally.we always tend to object to new knowledge.we rather seem contented with little,enough to push us throught the day.our traditions are stronger on the social side but fails to address the issue of knowledge,anything outside the scope of our tradition is just ignored.