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Default Should Christians speak out against Muslim persecution? - 11-29-2007, 05:33 AM

As the dust settles on the MOU Raila made with NAMLEF Muslims, it is obvious what the reaction of Christians has been/will be in the mind set of protecting their own turf. Understandable.

But what I don’t see common in Kenya is Christians speaking out against the very evident injustice being meted out to Muslims e.g. I think the clips are on youtube (not sure) where a group of mothers from coast are crying for their sons who are in guantamo bay, and even some who were arrested in Kenya and taken to Ethiopia and there was not much evidence even to link them to terrorism. Some have even been released due to lack of evidence and have come back home with horror stories.

My question is should Christians speak out against the suffering of the Muslims? ..even if they are muslims?

I find it very hypocritical of some Christians to criticize what the Muslims are trying to do for themselves because nobody has come to their rescue. Injustices against another should be seen as just that, injustice. But through the lens of religion, injustices against Muslims do not seem to be seen as such.

Why don’t Christians in Kenya stand up against injustice of the Muslim Kenyans?
 
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Default 11-29-2007, 06:32 AM

christianity is a white mans religion, Jesus has pale blue eyes, blonde hair and white skin. so if Jesus is black then I might consider.

For islam. I hate Arabs, they are tyrants and do not consider human life, same with the muslims themselves. how can you kill another human being in the name of islam?? ati fatwa.
Islam is sh1t!!!!
 


THE KENYA WE WANT IS THE KENYA WE AS WANANCHI BUILD POLITICIANS DO NOT BUILD KENYA THEY BECOME FAT CATS.
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Default 11-29-2007, 06:58 AM

WHy are muslims angry with this nice woman?
 
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Default 11-29-2007, 07:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Centre12 View Post

I find it very hypocritical of some Christians to criticize what the Muslims are trying to do for themselves because nobody has come to their rescue. Injustices against another should be seen as just that, injustice. But through the lens of religion, injustices against Muslims do not seem to be seen as such.

Why don’t Christians in Kenya stand up against injustice of the Muslim Kenyans?
which christians? Gema or others? Be specificic since we nolonger have a single community of christains in this country. It depends somewhat on which side of the political divide you stand.
 
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Default goofs! - 11-29-2007, 07:32 AM

:cool
 
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Default Christians Have to ask questions to Kibaki - 11-29-2007, 07:41 AM

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Originally Posted by brateng2000 View Post
:cool
KIBAKI IS PRETENDER TO CATHOLIC FAITH, IS a KILLER

APPEAL TO HON. MWAI KIBAKI EMILIO


1. Kenyans honestly hoped that when you got into office in the year 2002, you would very quickly unmask the ghost of Goldenberg; the genesis of our country’s dubious recognition as a hub of corruption. Unfortunately, the story of Goldenberg will never be complete without the story of former Finance Minister, Hon. Mwiraria. He paid out over Kshs 10 billion to corruption networks from the national treasury while it was entrusted to him. His cut can only be anyone’s guess. Now, what kind of principle minister is he if he can’t even travel abroad due to the prevailing ban?

2. Until NARC took over, Hon. Murungaru was the proud owner of struggling vet shops. He has cases pending in court having sold drugs to a parastatal for hundreds of millions of shillings and now owns the whole of Nyeri and most of its environs. He too is banned from visiting key partner countries.

3. The year is 1990 and president moi travels to USA. The cabinet member Hon. Nicholas Kipyator Biwott is in charge. He enlists an international hitman and some Kikuyu thugs to eliminate Robert John Ouko. He then skimmed off so much commission from contractors to the extent that the Yaya centre and many things became personal properties of this thief. Since then he became the antithesis of Midas touch and anything he touched came down tabling at very heavy social and economic cost. Do you remember Kenya National Assurance? This was killed by non-other than SHAW a close confidant of MOI and Biwot

4. Hon Martha Karua may pass as innocent but she is a moral cowwoman who will (if she has not already) mislead many young people. What is she doing with a celibate and well-known clergy personality long after he fled back to common life for the same reasons? Truly ‘saved’ people don’t do this.

5. Yes it is only in Africa where a Judge struck off the roll of Judges for corruption and incompetence can be made the head of Anti-corruption authority. Justice Ringera may consider himself lucky but he surely does not represent the republic we so desire to build. Remember he was corruptly put in office by his tribes men and misused to clean the judiciary of non- GEMA

6. The Security- Harambee House may have left but his legacy lives on. Ask any stranger at the ministry and they will tell you that nepotism is Hon. Michuki’s other name. Further his son-in-law runs a whole ministry and Brother –Thuo- had to push KBS out of transport. His murder escapades need not be the concern of the republic but while in office he ought to go about it with probity. Not in Ng’ong forest with a wannabe young enough to be his son police officer. Old habits die hard.

7. Perhaps after violent crime, crimes against the environment are going to be the most important in this century. Hon. David Mwiraria has been single handed responsible for wanton deforestation for personal gain in Central Rift Valley, Karura and Mt. Kenya while serving as Environment minister. Up to now he still pedals Sandal wood, a contraband trade.

8. Hon. Justice (Rtd) Aron Ringera is an otherwise honourable man of letters except for that little matter of exchanging a couple of million shillings at the basement of Hilton hotel; the price justice then. He went ahead to occupy the anti-corruption authority and was used to exile Githongo

9. Joshua Kulei is a private citizen who has shown little interest in politics generally. He however epitomizes corruption of Moi state and any association with our nascent party can only be counter productive. Perhaps all he owns today once belonged to all of us. We do not mind coz we are joining hands with Moi

10. Stanley Livondo Ndolo is well suited to play political bouncer but he is clearly not Minister Material. Let him also know that it is very foolish to eat raw Drug money to finance his newfound lifestyle. I’ll be shocked if he got away with it anyway.

11. In the heat of recent media exchanges with ODM chief, you once said that Kenyans are Mavi ya kuku. That statement is as true today as it was then. Kenyan should be treated with much contempt and you have not basis at all for seeking their votes

12. And if of Mungiki notoriety, Hon. Karume and Kikuyu Elites are. There is the small issue of 500 youths massacred in cold blood in one month. You are not empowered to kill innocent youths for asking for jobs. That you promised.

13. Bishop Njohn NJue may be seen as a necessary intercessor but without passing much judgement, one would doubt if his powerful prayers would ever reach the destination leave alone being answered by heavens. This Cardinal with little education is a pretender to morality. He lives off alms with opulence. His affairs with married faithful is a misnomer and bad manners for a church minister let alone a Cardinal.

14. Former Justice Minister Kiraitu Murungi may strike you as a suitable candidate from a distance. Those who know him however confess he’s also a shark. When some local asked about Anglo-leasing he laughed it off. Yet he heard clear saying Anglo-leasing is you- Kibaki- and your Ministers.

15. According to the culture of the Kikuyu people, what John Michuki did to his people would demand that he be cursed and disinherited. Born to a rich family in Muranga, Michuki assumed the role of a Provincial administrator during the colonial era. Within a very short spun, he many Kikuyus estimated to be in hundreds and fled leaving his tribesmen and siblings in perpetual threat of eviction by neighbours from their home. He has since engaged in a shameful love affair with First Lady Lucy. Lately also, he has been the main conduit for hard drug supplies kickbacks. I would touch that kind of person with a long pole.
 
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Default 11-29-2007, 06:17 PM

This is a deeply unsettling little volume, because it offers scant hope that the West can live at peace with Islam unless the religion changes radically, and even less hope that that is possible. Still, the questions Islam Unveiled poses and the answers it provides are hard to dismiss, and given the urgency of the times, necessary to ask.
If Spencer is right, the West faces a primitive, violent, and fiercely chauvinistic religion whose followers, to the extent that they are pious adherents to its teachings, cannot be reasoned with, only resisted. Islam is at its core inimical to democracy and human rights as we in the West understand them. To expect Muslims to drop their belligerence toward the West, which has existed since Islam's founding in the 7th century, is to expect them to jettison core values of their faith - something for which there is no precedent in Islamic history.

The Koran, writes Spencer, is more central to the Islamic faith than the Bible is to Christianity. Muslims believe it was revealed directly from God to the Prophet Muhammad. He will find there many divine instructions to make constant war on the infidel, who is only to be given the choice of conversion, slave-like subjugation (in historian Bat Yeor's word, dhimmitude) - or death. And throughout Islamic history, that's exactly how Muslim societies have behaved toward non-Muslims, who are by the very fact of their unbelief not considered innocents in the eternal, divinely mandated conflict.

Undeniably, Christians have in the past committed many despicable acts in the name of God, but they did so in violation of scriptural teaching, not in fulfillment of it, as in Islam.

This literalism has profound consequences for the way Muslims live. Unlike in Christianity, there is no scriptural mandate for separation of church and state in Islam, making secular democracy an alien and hostile concept. Women have few rights over and against their husbands, who may legally beat them, and men in general.

Enslaving infidels and raping infidel women are justified under Koranic law (and still occur in some Muslim lands).

Spencer does not believe that Islam can be tamed. While Muslims in the West live in peace, prosperity and religious liberty, Christians and other non-Muslims are persecuted, sometimes unto death, throughout the Muslim world today.

Because Islam demands death for heretics, moderate Muslims will always risk their lives by offering more liberal interpretations of their faith.

And most crucially, in his view, Islam cannot be other than a religion of violence. "Of course, most Muslims will never be terrorists. The problem is that ... Islam's violent elements are rooted in its central texts," Spencer writes. His final verdict on Islam is sobering, particularly when one considers the rapidly increasing Islamic presence in Europe.

Is Islam Unveiled pessimism, or realism? We can only know for sure if we have a serious public discussion of the issues Spencer raises in this important (but unsatisfyingly brief) book
Spencer may be wrong - until we hear from this supposed vast silent majority of peace-loving Muslims, the answers Spencer gives go a long way to explain the hatred, violence, backwardness, and fanaticism endemic to the Islamic world.

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42 of 53 people found the following review helpful:
Disturbing Truths, May 4, 2003
By lecudedag "lecudedag" (NSW Australia) - See all my reviews

Once again we find an author with guts to tackle a controversial topic. The difficulty with criticising Islam is that it's believers maintain that it is 'perfect' that the Koran is the unaltered word of their god. So, to criticise their beliefs, you are criticising their god.
However, this author tackles issues that need to be confronted, and he does so logcially. One negative reviewer stated that he does not put polygamy into historical context. This kind of relativism, that one person doing bad should be accepted because other people have done bad, simply does not work.

You either accept that these things are bad, or you don't. Muslims don't, end of discussion. If you believe polygamy (that is, only a man marrying many women - why not a woman marrying many men), is equable, then you will have difficulty with this book's arguments. If, however, you believe that men shouldn't sleep with underage girls (as Muhammed did), or that women should be treated equally (Islamic courts say that a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man), then this book will be one you will want to read.

This book explores these issues so that non-believers can find out what exactly Islam stands for. Many Muslims will say that Islam gives rights to women. Yes, it does, but these are so limited it's almost not worth mentioning. A case in point; property rights. This author points out that they still are entitled to half as much as men!

Islam stands for peace! Yes, this too is true. Peace amongst Muslim men. Whilst they state "There is no compulsion in religion" that is only again, part of the story. The author shows that there are numerous Koranic injunctions to kill or war against non-believers. (Whether they mean all non-Muslims, or 'pagans' can be seen by the fact that Muslims themselves live out the injunction by waging war against ALL non-Muslims).

Muhammed divides the world up, that area already under Muslim domination, and those areas that aren't but soon will be.

The issue of the Crusades is also smartly dealt with by the author. For too long Westerners have had to apologise for these misadventures. If you want to be relativist, if that is your bent, then consider that
a) they happened 1000 years ago - Muslim agression is still happening.
b) they were a reaction against Muslim agression - no Muslim has ever apologised for waging war against Christendom (remember all that is now part of Turkey, northern Africa, much of the Middle East, was once Christian!)
c) they were not actions based upon the teachings of Jesus - Jihad is taught by Muhammed, who actually lead armies into battle, and massacred PoWs.

There are numerous anti-Christian books also available on amazon, but are their authors in fear of their lives? How many authors has your local church condemned to death?

In the past 200 years, how many busses have Christian fundamentalists blown up as suicide bombers?

I would highly recommend this book to anyone who seeks to look at Islam without the biased of one who just accepts its tennets without logic, or question.


Amazon Online Reader : Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World's Fastest-Growing Faith
 
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Default 11-29-2007, 11:30 PM

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Originally Posted by KENNETH MATIBA View Post
This is a deeply unsettling little volume, because it offers scant hope that the West can live at peace with Islam unless the religion changes radically, and even less hope that that is possible. Still, the questions Islam Unveiled poses and the answers it provides are hard to dismiss, and given the urgency of the times, necessary to ask.
If Spencer is right, the West faces a primitive, violent, and fiercely chauvinistic religion whose followers, to the extent that they are pious adherents to its teachings, cannot be reasoned with, only resisted. Islam is at its core inimical to democracy and human rights as we in the West understand them. To expect Muslims to drop their belligerence toward the West, which has existed since Islam's founding in the 7th century, is to expect them to jettison core values of their faith - something for which there is no precedent in Islamic history.

The Koran, writes Spencer, is more central to the Islamic faith than the Bible is to Christianity. Muslims believe it was revealed directly from God to the Prophet Muhammad. He will find there many divine instructions to make constant war on the infidel, who is only to be given the choice of conversion, slave-like subjugation (in historian Bat Yeor's word, dhimmitude) - or death. And throughout Islamic history, that's exactly how Muslim societies have behaved toward non-Muslims, who are by the very fact of their unbelief not considered innocents in the eternal, divinely mandated conflict.

Undeniably, Christians have in the past committed many despicable acts in the name of God, but they did so in violation of scriptural teaching, not in fulfillment of it, as in Islam.

This literalism has profound consequences for the way Muslims live. Unlike in Christianity, there is no scriptural mandate for separation of church and state in Islam, making secular democracy an alien and hostile concept. Women have few rights over and against their husbands, who may legally beat them, and men in general.

Enslaving infidels and raping infidel women are justified under Koranic law (and still occur in some Muslim lands).

Spencer does not believe that Islam can be tamed. While Muslims in the West live in peace, prosperity and religious liberty, Christians and other non-Muslims are persecuted, sometimes unto death, throughout the Muslim world today.

Because Islam demands death for heretics, moderate Muslims will always risk their lives by offering more liberal interpretations of their faith.

And most crucially, in his view, Islam cannot be other than a religion of violence. "Of course, most Muslims will never be terrorists. The problem is that ... Islam's violent elements are rooted in its central texts," Spencer writes. His final verdict on Islam is sobering, particularly when one considers the rapidly increasing Islamic presence in Europe.

Is Islam Unveiled pessimism, or realism? We can only know for sure if we have a serious public discussion of the issues Spencer raises in this important (but unsatisfyingly brief) book
Spencer may be wrong - until we hear from this supposed vast silent majority of peace-loving Muslims, the answers Spencer gives go a long way to explain the hatred, violence, backwardness, and fanaticism endemic to the Islamic world.

Help other customers find the most helpful reviews
Was this review helpful to you? Report this | Permalink
Comment



42 of 53 people found the following review helpful:
Disturbing Truths, May 4, 2003
By lecudedag "lecudedag" (NSW Australia) - See all my reviews

Once again we find an author with guts to tackle a controversial topic. The difficulty with criticising Islam is that it's believers maintain that it is 'perfect' that the Koran is the unaltered word of their god. So, to criticise their beliefs, you are criticising their god.
However, this author tackles issues that need to be confronted, and he does so logcially. One negative reviewer stated that he does not put polygamy into historical context. This kind of relativism, that one person doing bad should be accepted because other people have done bad, simply does not work.

You either accept that these things are bad, or you don't. Muslims don't, end of discussion. If you believe polygamy (that is, only a man marrying many women - why not a woman marrying many men), is equable, then you will have difficulty with this book's arguments. If, however, you believe that men shouldn't sleep with underage girls (as Muhammed did), or that women should be treated equally (Islamic courts say that a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man), then this book will be one you will want to read.

This book explores these issues so that non-believers can find out what exactly Islam stands for. Many Muslims will say that Islam gives rights to women. Yes, it does, but these are so limited it's almost not worth mentioning. A case in point; property rights. This author points out that they still are entitled to half as much as men!

Islam stands for peace! Yes, this too is true. Peace amongst Muslim men. Whilst they state "There is no compulsion in religion" that is only again, part of the story. The author shows that there are numerous Koranic injunctions to kill or war against non-believers. (Whether they mean all non-Muslims, or 'pagans' can be seen by the fact that Muslims themselves live out the injunction by waging war against ALL non-Muslims).

Muhammed divides the world up, that area already under Muslim domination, and those areas that aren't but soon will be.

The issue of the Crusades is also smartly dealt with by the author. For too long Westerners have had to apologise for these misadventures. If you want to be relativist, if that is your bent, then consider that
a) they happened 1000 years ago - Muslim agression is still happening.
b) they were a reaction against Muslim agression - no Muslim has ever apologised for waging war against Christendom (remember all that is now part of Turkey, northern Africa, much of the Middle East, was once Christian!)
c) they were not actions based upon the teachings of Jesus - Jihad is taught by Muhammed, who actually lead armies into battle, and massacred PoWs.

There are numerous anti-Christian books also available on amazon, but are their authors in fear of their lives? How many authors has your local church condemned to death?

In the past 200 years, how many busses have Christian fundamentalists blown up as suicide bombers?

I would highly recommend this book to anyone who seeks to look at Islam without the biased of one who just accepts its tennets without logic, or question.


Amazon Online Reader : Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World's Fastest-Growing Faith
you are doing yourself no good by the way when you spread propaganda about a particular issue nice and bright people tend to fend for the truth by themselves and if you don't realise this generation is not a generation to be told what to since people are educated and the net provides them with the knowledge they seek what you are doing is propagating islam in way or the other why don't you just preach about christianity atleast people may want to follow what you are saying but if you talk ill about a certain religion people will tend to search for the truth and you know what ?? the internet will provide them with the truth....so Inshallah God will make you see the light and make you consider islam as the religion of truth
 
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Default 11-29-2007, 11:33 PM

More and more people are waking up to the threat of IslamoNazism CLICK HERE Far-right Swiss party divides nation on immigrant issue - Print Version - International Herald Tribune that is infecting the world with its satanic ideology by the likes of Saudi Arabia, CAIR the Muslim Brotherhood and other vile, evil Muslims groups. As more and more of their plans to plunge the world into a cesspool of Demonic trappings is exposed, the more people wake up to the horrors and perversions of Islam. Only by launching a new Crusades will we bring back sanity, peace and goodwill to humankind. We will prevail because good always prevails in the end against evil. Islam is evil and it must be destroyed and it will be.
 
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