[youngben]

Originally Posted by jasakwa

My friend Ndigila,Atlian seem to be having trouble differentiating between sin and the 10 commandments.He is in the assumption that if some vice was not mentioned in the 10 commandments then it is not a sin.
Sin is the disobedience to the LORD GOD's Laws and is unrighteous, unjust, immoral and wrong. The five types of sin, transgression, unrighteousness, omission of known duty, faithlessness, and foolish thinking constitute a sin against the LORD GOD.

Homosexuality as well as lust,gred,pride,hate ,envy,discrimination and such are sins too.

To set the record straight, when i said seeping with you brother, I actually meant with your brothers wife, in line with the argument put forth earlier, so lets not make this a homosexuality thread.

Actually Jasakwa, with the hindsight of a few older threads, The question has always been evaded when put forth.

You so rightly say that ATLian cannot differentiate sin and the ten commandments and that by implication you do mean to say, sin is not only what is mentioned it the 10 commandments, that may be so - look at the size of case laws, each different from each other in the judicial systems.

You mentioned "The five types of sin, transgression, unrighteousness, omission of known duty, faithlessness, and foolish thinking constitute a sin against the LORD GOD."

What am asking has always been this? Since these are so ambigous and subject to various interpretations, who has this authority on earth currently to guide and interpret these laws?? In human laws, the judiciary has the authority to interpret a law and understand its spirit and intention and give forth direction in its aplicability with regards to a case.

What is foolish thinking?
What is right, so that i may not be unrighteous. (i wear 2 materials)??
What transgression??

What are the parametres???

[jasakwa]

Originally Posted by youngben

To set the record straight, when i said seeping with you brother, I actually meant with your brothers wife, in line with the argument put forth earlier, so lets not make this a homosexuality thread.

Actually Jasakwa, with the hindsight of a few older threads, The question has always been evaded when put forth.

You so rightly say that ATLian cannot differentiate sin and the ten commandments and that by implication you do mean to say, sin is not only what is mentioned it the 10 commandments, that may be so - look at the size of case laws, each different from each other in the judicial systems.

You mentioned "The five types of sin, transgression, unrighteousness, omission of known duty, faithlessness, and foolish thinking constitute a sin against the LORD GOD."

What am asking has always been this? Since these are so ambigous and subject to various interpretations, who has this authority on earth currently to guide and interpret these laws?? In human laws, the judiciary has the authority to interpret a law and understand its spirit and intention and give forth direction in its aplicability with regards to a case.

What is foolish thinking?
What is right, so that i may not be unrighteous. (i wear 2 materials)??
What transgression??

What are the parametres???

Foolish thinking is thoughts such as rape,porn,planning murder
Being righteous is just obeying God's teaching.In the old testament it was the Torah for the jews.Christians have the 2 laws of love which Jesus taught inscribed inside their heart.

Transgression is a violation of law or duty.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by jasakwa

Foolish thinking is thoughts such as rape,porn,planning murder
Being righteous is just obeying God's teaching.In the old testament it was the Torah for the jews.Christians have the 2 laws of love which Jesus taught inscribed inside their heart.

Transgression is a violation of law or duty.

Remember that Youngben's question is directed at Christianity as a whole, and not just yourself. So be careful not to answer the question from personal opinion.

[ATLian]

My friend Ndigila,Atlian seem to be having trouble differentiating between sin and the 10 commandments.He is in the assumption that if some vice was not mentioned in the 10 commandments then it is not a sin.

You so rightly say that ATLian cannot differentiate sin and the ten commandments

Jasakwa and Young Ben,

please explain to me how you reached this conclusion. I know that there are tons of sins that aren't mentioned in the 10 Commandments.

[ATLian]

So Jesus came from that line of adulterer(judah) purposely so that even adulterers may find away to share in the atonement.

If that's your logic, then Mary should have been single, non-Jewish, a thief, a murderer and a prostitute who conceived Jesus after having unprotected group-sex with some unknown jamaas. But as we know, she was pure, a Jew, a virgin, etc etc etc. That's because god (and by extension Jesus) cannot be associated with evil!

BTW your argument shows exactly what I was talking about Christians and their hypocrisy. When it suits you, you ignore sin. When it suits you, you condemn sin. Here you do not condemn Judah one bit for his adulterous sins. Instead you go on to glorify it, saying that it shows that it (Judah's adultery) was just a part of god's glorious and perfect plan so that adulterers too could share in the atonement. That is what I call the hypocrisy. Other adulterers were sinners and were to be put to death, but because Judah is god's man, he gets a clean pass!

Also by saying this, you seem to imply that god intentionally wanted his great man to commit a sin (which is in the 10 Commandments and for which he killed many people in the Bible) so as to achieve a specific purpose in the end. That means that you're implying that god can be associated with evil!


In Onan's case he wasn't purnished for masturbation,thast why i even disagree with bilble reader on this.Onan was purnished for being disobedient.To God Obedience is very important.

I agree with you on that one.



You cannot directly equate it to Judah's action as Judah might have sinned by sleeping with a prostitute,but in a way wasn't a mortal sin,

Here I disagree with you. You say above "To God Obedience is very important". Since god categorically says that "Thou shalt NOT (insert any sin here)", that means that every sin is disobedience against god. Secondly, adultery IS a mortal sin. Sleeping with your daughter in law IS a mortal sin. The Bible is unambiguously clear about that:

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them

Judah committed these 2 mortal sins at once, and you praise him and those actions for being part of god's great plan to bring Jesus to save even mortal sinners! WTF?

Here's the next verse that comes after the above 2 verses:

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Again, another glaring example of Christian hypocrisy is they will quote and requote this verse to prove how homosexuality is a grave sin against god, then totally ignore the 2 preceeding verses when it comes to condemning Judah for what he did! God will raise Judah to be a great man despite him committing 2 mortal sins at once, then burn down Sodom and Gomorah (with all the innocent baby girls in there) because some men committed the mortal sin of homosexuality! WTF?

Like Young Ben asked, when is a sin a sin and when is a sin not a sin? How does god decide when to wipe your city out for the mortal sin you committed, and when does he decide when to make you a great man despite the mortal sin you committed?????

[jasakwa]

Originally Posted by ATLian

My friend Ndigila,Atlian seem to be having trouble differentiating between sin and the 10 commandments.He is in the assumption that if some vice was not mentioned in the 10 commandments then it is not a sin.

You so rightly say that ATLian cannot differentiate sin and the ten commandments

Jasakwa and Young Ben,

please explain to me how you reached this conclusion. I know that there are tons of sins that aren't mentioned in the 10 Commandments.

Atlian,you did sound that way when you implied that homosexuality is not a sin because it was not among the 10 commandmennts.you didn't say but you implied to that effect.

[rayfisher]

Atlian nothing would have changed the mission Jesus came to do but God's will.Now if God himself chose Mary to be the Mother of Jesus,what has that got to do with you.God has a right to plan the way he is going to do his things.Just because he chose the line of Judah and Judah happened to be an adulterer should not automatically like a mathematical equation mean that Mary had to be a criminal or adulteress.There are things you can't question like why you were born a male not a female.
Romans 9:14-23
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,...


BTW your argument shows exactly what I was talking about Christians and their hypocrisy. When it suits you, you ignore sin. When it suits you, you condemn sin. Here you do not condemn Judah one bit for his adulterous sins. Instead you go on to glorify it, saying that it shows that it (Judah's adultery) was just a part of god's glorious and perfect plan so that adulterers too could share in the atonement. That is what I call the hypocrisy. Other adulterers were sinners and were to be put to death, but because Judah is god's man, he gets a clean pass!

There is nothing sarcastic in the plan,adulteresses were very much discriminated by people of that age,it would have been easy for critics like yourself to question why Jesus spent time with known sinners and even delivered a prostitute from angry mob about to stone her,may be it known to you that God uses ordinary and even weak people to show strength.When Judah commited adultery,he didn't know he was commiting incest,he should have been purnished according to torah Law but blame the people not God.


Also by saying this, you seem to imply that god intentionally wanted his great man to commit a sin (which is in the 10 Commandments and for which he killed many people in the Bible) so as to achieve a specific purpose in the end. That means that you're implying that god can be associated with evil!

Here again i chose to disagree in that God set the commandments so that the people could live righteously and not to eliminate them.These laws were enforced by the people not God.The line of Judah was purposely to show people that God embraced even the sinners and the condemn in his new plan to save the World through Jesus Christ.

You cannot directly equate it to Judah's action as Judah might have sinned by sleeping with a prostitute,but in a way wasn't a mortal sin,

Here I disagree with you. You say above "To God Obedience is very important". Since god categorically says that "Thou shalt NOT (insert any sin here)", that means that every sin is disobedience against god. Secondly, adultery IS a mortal sin. Sleeping with your daughter in law IS a mortal sin. The Bible is unambiguously clear about that:

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them

Judah committed these 2 mortal sins at once, and you praise him and those actions for being part of god's great plan to bring Jesus to save even mortal sinners! WTF?
God's mind doesn't work like yours and mine Atlian,the very sinners like Judah were included in the big plan,so that nobody will brag of his own righteousnes and lock the masses from recieving the grace.

Here's the next verse that comes after the above 2 verses:

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

The Torah Law you mentioned actually failed to reconcile man to God and thats why Jesus came.Salvation being possible through grace and faith,and righteousness by faith.I know you are getting confused here ,but in a nut shell adultery and incest were sin purnishable by death,yet just like in today's legal system lot of bunch of people were commiting them and go unpurnished,and thats precisely why Jesus got associated with sinners even in his lineage,to bring the holier than thou lot into humble understanding of God's will for man.

Again, another glaring exampae of Christian hypocrisy is they will quote and requote this verse to prove how homosexuality is a grave sin against god, then totally ignore the 2 preceeding verses when it comes to condemning Judah for what he did! God will raise Judah to be a great man despite him committing 2 mortal sins at once, then burn down Sodom and Gomorah (with all the innocent baby girls in there) because some men committed the mortal sin of homosexuality! WTF?

Listen Atlian,you seem to have this notion that God is all about destruction,on the contrary the bible doesn't say anywhere that God is not susceptible to anger/wrath.he is but it mentions that he is slow to anger,and rich in mercy.When his patience is abused he gets angry,atlian if you were to lead the children of israel out of egypt with all that might and then they ridicule you,am sure they would not have reached canaan,you sound like one angry man atlian.They scarce discontinued their revolting from God; they were a “grief to Him forty years together in the wilderness” (Psa 95:10),yes God gave orders for the destruction of sodom and gomorah,he was fed up with their rebellion,what kind of kids do you think they would have raised?God is capable of rasing new generations.he created all for his pleasure.But so that you know Jesus came to reconcile man to God,he noticed that cities of bethsaida and samaria,worse than sodom and gomorrah and yet told them not to think themselves better unless they repent they will fell into the same fate.Indeen he told his disciples severally not to think the people of sodom sins were worse than theirs.The difference between then and now is Jesus.His death,burial and resurection changed alot.Just repent,believe and obey because once the same Jesus comes back and takes the church away,tribulations will set in.

[youngben]

Originally Posted by ATLian

My friend Ndigila,Atlian seem to be having trouble differentiating between sin and the 10 commandments.He is in the assumption that if some vice was not mentioned in the 10 commandments then it is not a sin.

You so rightly say that ATLian cannot differentiate sin and the ten commandments

Jasakwa and Young Ben,

please explain to me how you reached this conclusion. I know that there are tons of sins that aren't mentioned in the 10 Commandments.

That was a contextual rhetorical comment ATLian, the post goes on to deny the claim actually.

@Jasakwa -

Sin is a trangression,
A transgression is a deviatiion against a norm
A norm is society specific
So a transgression in christianity is a deviation from a christian norm.
The christainity norm reads

• Honour and obey your God
• Do unto others what you would like to be done to you

So please clearly tell us what specific transgression masturbation is, or maybe i need to relook the term transgression I could be wrong, am not infalible you know

[jasakwa]

Originally Posted by youngben

That was a contextual rhetorical comment ATLian, the post goes on to deny the claim actually.

@Jasakwa -

Sin is a trangression,
A transgression is a deviatiion against a norm
A norm is society specific
So a transgression in christianity is a deviation from a christian norm.
The christainity norm reads

• Honour and obey your God
• Do unto others what you would like to be done to you

So please clearly tell us what specific transgression masturbation is, or maybe i need to relook the term transgression I could be wrong, am not infalible you know

Young ben i would use this verse as an example
Eph 5:3 (NIV) But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people.
probably there wasn't a term for translating masturbation at that time.People then didn't need to masturbate,but it is summed up in sexual immorality and impurity.
In Timothy also it is mentioned
1Th 4:2-8 (NIV) For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God... For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Masturbation is subject of self control,during masturbation sexual immaginations come in,some imagine doing it with their girl-friends,or other gals or even same sex who knows.
in romans again;
Ro 6:13 (NIV) Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.

Masturbation is verything about lust,the only difference is the actual penetration.Even if you are imagining making love to your wife,we are asked to have self -control,the moment you spill the sperm on your own,who knows what unseen creatures are watching you.If your wife is in town,why can't you wait for her?isn't that greed and lucre?

[youngben]

Originally Posted by jasakwa

Foolish thinking is thoughts such as rape,porn,planning murder
Being righteous is just obeying God's teaching.In the old testament it was the Torah for the jews.Christians have the 2 laws of love which Jesus taught inscribed inside their heart.

Transgression is a violation of law or duty.

Jasakwa, we are in the vague zone again.

You say foolish thinking are examples you have mentioned, who decides they are foolish and the degree of the same??

When christian crusaders marched to the holy lands to free jerusalem and actually killed muslims in tens of thousands, was that foolish? It was murder!

When a purely christian couple watched a sex enhancement medium, thats porn.

Basically what am driving at is this, everyday humans and society are changing and i believe evolving not so much physically than mentally and ideologically. Laws change and contradict each other living many lost due to the inflexibilities of christian leaders. One day you preach love sinners, next day stone homosexuals, if they are the sinners why marginalise them, jesus did not come for the righteous. modern christianity is persecutory in nature, and has lost totally the essence of christness.

Leave all material riches and serve god, nowadays the reverse is true
Pastors will not bury faithful because they had not paid one fee or another

If we stop the idealist christian arguments, we shall see the real picture as to why christianity is loosing out to sects and other belief sytems.