[reggie_woic]

logically (à la ATLian), if he chose to do anything at all, he could't be perfect;
because every action requires a change - and if something changes then it wasn't perfect.

illogocally (à la we christians), His abilities are not limited to what we can satisfiably explain to ourselves logically.


"that which doesn't exist has unlimited potential" -rvw

[chotadipo]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

If God had the ability to create beings with free will, and then He decided not to create those beings, could He have been perfect?

The above question is illogical from GOD's perspective and from any human being's perspective unless you have blind faith. An all knowing GOD cannot by definition create a being that has free will. By being all knowing, he knows exactly what that being he created will do at anytime with or whithout a free will. Just by having this knowledge, the being stops having free will. Now, for arguments sake, if GOD chose to create a being with no free will, then he is displaying his "perfectness".

[grip_daddy]

The above question is illogical from GOD's perspective and from any human being's perspective unless you have blind faith.

It seeks to understand your definition of free will, perfection, and God.

An all knowing GOD cannot by definition create a being that has free will.

Human beings are not all knowing, but at times can know what a fellow human being will choose. For example, when I ask my sister to buy her own lunch, and she buys chips, and I knew that she would buy chips, does it mean she didn't have free will in choice of food simply because I knew?

By being all knowing, he knows exactly what that being he created will do at anytime with or whithout a free will.

Well put.

Just by having this knowledge, the being stops having free will.

And why is that?

Now, for arguments sake, if GOD chose to create a being with no free will, then he is displaying his "perfectness".

Does it mean that His perfection exist only if displayed? That if He chose not to display He ceases being perfect?

[chotadipo]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

[b]...Human beings are not all knowing, but at times can know what a fellow human being will choose. For example, when I ask my sister to buy her own lunch, and she buys chips, and I knew that she would buy chips, does it mean she didn't have free will in choice of food simply because I knew?

How did you know your sister will choose french fries? Was it from instinct or a pattern you have observed, or an extrapolation or infered reasoning? You see, your whole idea of knowing your sister will buy french fries is based on learned paramters, but with GOD, even before he created your sister, he knew she will buy french fries on this particular day. He also knows she will buy french fries whether she has free will or not because even with free will, she will ultimately buy french fries. To GOD, unlike you, it is a zero sum game. And to answer your question if she had free will, I would say no, she did not, because in your case you are now GOD. My assumption is that you like GOD is all knowing.

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Just by having this knowledge, the being stops having free will.

And why is that?

It is so because free will presupposes a choice different from expected. With GOD, sorry, there are no surprises. He knows exactly what you will do. The moment he acts surprised as we will expect him on judgment day, then he loses his omnipotence, and leaves room for rebellion and challenges. He ceases being perfect and honestly very few people will remain for long worshipping and singing praises to a being who is not perfect.

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Does it mean that His perfection exist only if displayed? That if He chose not to display He ceases being perfect?

No no no Grip_daddy, stop engaging me in word play. You know exactly what I meant. Display in the above context was for your understanding on how GOD will react. It does not in anyway imply that everything he does has to be displayed.

[grip_daddy]

Chotadipo,

Ok I know she will buy chips because of pattern, her previously expressed desires, etc, and she does the choosing. To me, since I just know, and I dont influence her choosing, she has free will to choose the chips whenever wherever, my knowledge being inconsequential.

I can extend my knowledge of her choices to include other things, and still she'll remain free to choose as long as I dont influence or coarse her choices.

So God not only knows, but knows everything about her and about everyone, everything, everytime. Since he doesn't coarse anyone to make the choices already known to Him, He cannot be held responsible for your destiny. So, He is perfect and not responsible for choices made.

The problem is that we think in finite terms, thereby bending infinity to be accommodated by finite reality.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

Chotadipo,

Ok I know she will buy chips because of pattern, her previously expressed desires, etc, ......

Grip,

regarding your sis and chips - if she loves chips, she always goes to the same store to by chips, and she goes there today with only 20 shillings (and the cheapest thing and only thing that costs 20 shillings in that store is chips), and she tells you that she has gone to buy chips, then you can say "I know she has gone to buy chips". But anything can happen on the way there. She might find 100 bob note on the ground and decide to instead buy a burger. Ama she might come across a hungry kid and give the 20 bob to the kid. etc. So despite you "knowing", another outcome can develop.

In the case of god, there can be no other outcome. If god knows she will buy chips, then she will 100% absolutely be guaranteed to buy chips. Even if she meets the starving kid, ama picks up the 100 bob note, she will still buy chips. That's the fundamental difference. She has no choice but to do what god has always known she will do. She therefore has no free will!

BTW even god doesn't have free will. God has always known everything he will do in every situation in the future. God is therefore bound by his own knowledge to do those things. If in 34 Billion AD god doesn't do something he had always known he would do, then that means that that something god had always known is wrong! Meaning he cannot be god. If even god doesn't have free will, why does it surprise man that man has no free will?

See the problem that comes when man creates a god then gives him a myriad of powers that later on turn out to be totally contradictory!

[grip_daddy]

ATLian,

You mean if some entity knows absolutely what choices you will make, that knowledge in essence negates your free will? As in you were not making choices?

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by grip_daddy

ATLian,

You mean if some entity knows absolutely what choices you will make, that knowledge in essence negates your free will? As in you were not making choices?

By definition yes! Especially if you argue that this entity is all powerful, all knowing, infallible, etc.

You can't tell me that god had always known what I'll do tomorrow at 12:15 pm, then tell me that I have a choice as to whether to do that thing or not tomorrow at 12:15 pm. That's contradictory.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by ATLian

You can't tell me that god had always known what I'll do tomorrow at 12:15 pm, then tell me that I have a choice as to whether to do that thing or not tomorrow at 12:15 pm. That's contradictory.

It isn't contradictory. You're saying that your choice is dependent on what God sees you doing and that isn't the case. Your choice is dependent on you alone.

[grip_daddy]

Originally Posted by ndigila

It isn't contradictory. You're saying that your choice is dependent on what God sees you doing and that isn't the case. Your choice is dependent on you alone.

To add to that; you wont do it because God knows, but God knows because you will do it.

If you will know the meaning of the statement, "I AM THAT I AM", you will appreciate that the below statement is similar to God's foreknowledge.

I dont know what you did yesterday at 2.00a.m. because I controlled your actions, but I know it because you did it. The difference between me and God is just that God knows all past, present, and future events in like manner.