[youngben]

I have always maintained that the old testament for all purposes and intent is a judaic book and has no bearing on christianity unless for reference. I have heard the argument that christianity is founded on the old testament but i prefer to put in the word "loosely based".

I came across an old joke that actually put things into perspective, if you have never read it, enjoy. If you have, reflect

************************************************** **********

Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's
Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to
share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone
tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply
remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an
abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the
specific biblical laws and how to best follow them. Specifically:

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it
creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is
my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them.
Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned
in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a
fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is
in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The
problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women
take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male
and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.
A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not
Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.
Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I
morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
Abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if
I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading
glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some
flexibility here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the
hair around their temples, even though this is expressly
forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig
makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester
blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town
together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn
them to death at a private family affair like we do with people
who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14).

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am
confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

Anita Heiss

[reggie_woic]

Dear Anita,
Jesus was sent to fulfill the word (apparently because the word needed fulfillment) and
he brought with him a general message of love, straight from the horses mouth.

I realize that this is probably news to you, Anita, so i suggest you go through THE REMAINING HALF of your bible.

[ATLian]

Dear Anita,
Jesus was sent to fulfill the word (apparently because the word needed fulfillment) and he brought with him a general message of love, straight from the horses mouth.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Reggie,

if Jesus did indeed come to fulfil the law, and not change it, then it does mean that all those laws Anita asked about still hold, right?

Also, regarding the "straight from the horses mouth" comment: Since Jesus is god, he is the horse in your statement above, ama? So why did he change his own message from the very violent one in the past to the more forgiving one in the future?

[reggie_woic]

yes, the laws have become null. they do not hold anymore.

"...The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers.
You shall listen to Him in whatever he tells you....” -Moses

what we're doing is listening to Him, and He says

"....Love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbor.
Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law....." -Jesus

God does not change. His character never changes. its how he relates to us that
changes AS WE CHANGE. Even though Adam and Eve had been severely punished,
God still loved them but their relationship with God was changed forever because of their sin.

[youngben]

Originally Posted by reggie_woic

yes, the laws have become null. they do not hold anymore.

"...The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers.
You shall listen to Him in whatever he tells you....” -Moses

what we're doing is listening to Him, and He says

"....Love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbor.
Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law....." -Jesus

God does not change. His character never changes. its how he relates to us that
changes AS WE CHANGE. Even though Adam and Eve had been severely punished,
God still loved them but their relationship with God was changed forever because of their sin.

The morals of the story are these, and your answer which is the predictable response highlights a very important issue(s).

1. Its obvious that some laws are obsolete, but christians still refer to the old testaments for some laws, we see above some acts that were forbidden and cursed, then now they are acceptable because we change. (I concur).

So what makes christians decide what has changed or not, if these laws were not really rebuffed in an itemised manner that is this has changed and not the other, this means then everything changes with the change being constant across board. e.g. (in modern times 20 years ago there was nas no law against internet fraud, 10 years ago there was no law against cloning, 50 years ago women could not vote, 100 years ago africans (negroes) could not vote)

So what makes homosexualism an abomination while working on the sabbath is OK now (just for argument sake, am heterosexual), who chooses what is to change? who makes these rules?.

2. Clearly we see sin redefined to those things that harm your neighbour and those things that harm or are against your God. - As per your 2 italicised statements, which I agree with by the way. So how does homosexuality harm either??

Secondly, Is homosexuality a social issue or religious issue?? it was not even covered in the original commandments!

You can replace any case you would like to argue, not just homosexuality

[chotadipo]

Originally Posted by youngben

The morals of the story are these, and your answer which is the predictable response highlights a very important issue(s).

1. Its obvious that some laws are obsolete, but christians still refer to the old testaments for some laws, we see above some acts that were forbidden and cursed, then now they are acceptable because we change. (I concur).

So what makes christians decide what has changed or not, if these laws were not really rebuffed in an itemised manner that is this has changed and not the other, this means then everything changes with the change being constant across board. e.g. (in modern times 20 years ago there was nas no law against internet fraud, 10 years ago there was no law against cloning, 50 years ago women could not vote, 100 years ago africans (negroes) could not vote)

So what makes homosexualism an abomination while working on the sabbath is OK now (just for argument sake, am heterosexual), who chooses what is to change? who makes these rules?.

2. Clearly we see sin redefined to those things that harm your neighbour and those things that harm or are against your God. - As per your 2 italicised statements, which I agree with by the way. So how does homosexuality harm either??

Secondly, Is homosexuality a social issue or religious issue?? it was not even covered in the original commandments!

You can replace any case you would like to argue, not just homosexuality

The Bible is a Jewish Folk Tale. Why you even chose to read it if not for cosmetic purposes baffles me. You are better of reading teh VEDI or confucious.

[Death]

Originally Posted by youngben

T

So what makes homosexualism an abomination while working on the sabbath is OK now (just for argument sake, am heterosexual), who chooses what is to change? who makes these rules?.

2. Clearly we see sin redefined to those things that harm your neighbour and those things that harm or are against your God. - As per your 2 italicised statements, which I agree with by the way. So how does homosexuality harm either??

@Reggie

You just got spanked.
We eagerly await your response.

[ATLian]

yes, the laws have become null. they do not hold anymore.

Reggie,

I just quoted Jesus himself saying that the laws still hold, and he came down to uphold them not to change them.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

How can you then state that the laws are null and void. Where in the NT does Jesus categorically state that?



Love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbor.
Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.....

That is one heck of a non sequitur (a conclusion that does not follow the evidence!). How do you even arrive at this conclusion? How can this law mean that all other laws in the OT are null and void? How does loving thy neighbor negate the law that you cannot wear clothing made of two different materials (like wool and linen) or that you cannot plough your land with a donkey and an ox?



God does not change. His character never changes. its how he relates to us that
changes AS WE CHANGE.

Tafadhali provide Biblical evidence to back up this statement. God is PERFECT, meaning that everything about him can never change. That everything includes how he relates to people because the way he related to people before they sinned was perfect. Saying he has changed the way he used to relate to us is implying that the way he now relates to us is no longer perfect.

[ATLian]

So what makes christians decide what has changed or not,

Youngben,

you nailed it. It is not god that changed, it is man. Man realized that god had some laws that were so fakced up that they would not hold in a civilized world. So man changed them.



Secondly, Is homosexuality a social issue or religious issue?? it was not even covered in the original commandments!

Again, Christianity devotes an inordinate amount of time to issues that are really non-issues. Homosexuality should not be an issue to anybody unless someone is getting raped. If two adults mutually consent to engage in homosexual sex, it should not be an issue to anyone but those two adults!

[youngben]

Hope am not being pushy but this thread has not been answered to anyones satisfaction.
The issue being "who changes the rules of what rules are to change??"

Its a very straight forward question, I would like to believe it has challenged most or is it an issue of no answer.

Regards all