[Kurio-City]

Originally Posted by Dynamic

Kuriocity, I'd type you a lengthy explanation or an answer to your quest, but I'm kinda tired right now, so I'll give it to you in a quick nutshell. You ought not look for the trinity in the bible as a means to justify it's veracity. The word nothing more than a uniting word that describes the relationship between God the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Just the same way the whole concept of the rapture describes the supposed christ's descention to earth to get his people (that's for another thread). The word Rapture is not written in the bible, but anyone who's well versed with the Bible's contents is familiar by what the apostle Paul spoke of. Having said that, here's the meat or perhaps the sweetest thing about the trinity. To the skeptic or the curious such as yourself, the concept of the trinity can appear as one that's very absurd or doesn't make sense at all, because logically, 1+1+1 is not equal to 1. The beauty of it is that this concept only makes sense in the Christian faith. Allow me to defend that statement. One of man's many quests in his lifetime is to find unity in all the diversity around him; the very reason why we go to school, to find unity out of diversity (University = unity out of diversity); to find the quintescence or so to speak (we already have water, earth, wind and fire. What's the one that which unites these four?)

Curiosity- I'd expalin more, but I'm kinda worn out. However, I'll leave you with this. When you get a chance, swing by barnes and noble and get yourself a copy of Dr. Ravi Zacharia's "Who is God?" This book will answer a lot of your question, for it approaches such questions from a philosophical standpoint with reality as it's backdrop. It'll set you back about twenty bucks, but it'll be worth it. Write back in here and let me know what you think of it. Also, vizit Home Page - Ravi Zacharias International Ministries (RZIM), click the radio links, and listen to some of his works. It's the very thing you're looking for.

Thanks Dynamic for your efforts to explain the trinity but if you notice, I am not looking for an explanation from Chrisitians but direct quotes from the bible that support the belief and what they think about the fact that it was a belief that was formed after a meeting with leaders way after Jesus.

[Kurio-City]

Originally Posted by ndigila

The Bible clearly differentiates the 3 entities and calls each one of them God. That kills the father=son=holy ghost theory and the different-manifestation-of-the-same-entity theory.

Okay, I think we are going round in circles here....Where in the Bible does it say holy ghost IS God?? And "Holy one of God" when referring to Jesus in the verse you provide does not mean he IS God. I am OF my own father, it does not make me equal to my father?

Originally Posted by ndigila

I explained it in my previous post. Incase you missed it

....

Jesus was humble. He didn't think it appropriate to flaunt his deity all over the place. He wanted to appear a normal man. There's numerous examples where Jesus performed miracles and told his disciples not to tell other people what they've seen....

I agree that Jesus was humble, but it's one thing to be humble about your abilities and another to keep quiet about something that is suppossed to the be crux of the same religion one is trying to teach. If Jesus wanted the trinity to be a key concept in the religion, he would have said it himself at the least and not leave it up to until he died. He was the final messenger after all wasn't he? so I really don't buy that.

Originally Posted by ndigila

To summarize my points:
1. The Trinity is One God existing as 3 distinct entities: The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost. (1 John 5:7)
2. The Trinity is NOT three different manifestations of the same entity. The Bible shows the 3 entities interacting with each other.
3. The Trinity is NOT three Gods. The Bible says that God is One.

Again, poleni for long post.

I can agree with statement (2) and (3). However, statement (1) contradicts (2)....you are now confusing me???

1. "One God existing as 3 distinct entities" means
i.e. god exists as the father, god exists as the son, and god also exists as the holy ghost.

2. "The Trinity is NOT three different manifestations of the same entity. The Bible shows the 3 entities interacting with each other."
i.e. God does NOT manifest as the father, God does NOT manifest as the son, and God does NOT manifest as the holy ghost...instead the father, son and holy ghost interact with each other.

I think we finally agree here...lakini hiyo first statement of yours is kidogo off the tangent with what is in the bible. The Bible says:

Jesus is the son of god:
John 9
[35] Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

John 3
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


The father is seperate from the holy ghost and the son but they work together:
John 14
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Matt.28
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost


So we know that the bible says Jesus is god's son, and he sent to him his holy spirit. But "his" means "belonging to" so God sending the holy spirit to Jesus does not mean god IS the holy spirit, the same way I can send a messenger to do my work for me. So I still do not see anything in the bible, including a statement from jesus himself, that he IS god or that the holy ghost IS god. All you have given me are verses that are intepretated and vague, leaving way for skewing of meaning. The above verses are so clear and unmistakable and so far you have shown me nothing of equal clarity from the bible to prove your point number 1. I can't seem to find the verse you are list to try and support point (1) either i.e. "1 John 5:7"...is it chapter 1 or 5?...please can you clarify which one you are talking about?

[ndigila]

Okay I'll try one last time. Although I guess I'm just repeating myself. If you treated the Bible as the final authority, this is what you'd get.

1. The Father is God. (I don't think I need to prove that).
2. The Son is God. (John 1:1,14, Hebrews 1)
3. The Son is from God. (As per those Bible verses you've given)
4. The Holy spirit is from God. (As you've proved)
5. The Holy spirit is God. (Acts 5:3-5)

To conclude otherwise would mean either to ignore some bible verses (which i've noticed you're doing) and/or to dismiss the Bible as biblical contradictions (which you've also done).

Okay, I think we are going round in circles here....Where in the Bible does it say holy ghost IS God??


Acts 5:3-5 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own, and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.


If I say "Why have you lied to Jim? Its very bad to lie to the Pastor." Would you say that to conclude that Jim is the Pastor is a vague interpretation?


And "Holy one of God" when referring to Jesus in the verse you provide does not mean he IS God. I am OF my own father, it does not make me equal to my father?

I agree, but the point I was trying to make is that Jesus didn't even want word to spread out that he is the son of God even though he is.

I agree that Jesus was humble, but it's one thing to be humble about your abilities and another to keep quiet about something that is suppossed to the be crux of the same religion one is trying to teach. If Jesus wanted the trinity to be a key concept in the religion, he would have said it himself at the least and not leave it up to until he died. He was the final messenger after all wasn't he? so I really don't buy that.


This is where our difference clearly stands out. So are you saying that Paul was in error saying that every tongue will confess that Jesus is God? Yet he states that he received his doctrine in revelation from Jesus? (Gal 1) Did the author of Hebrews make a mistake when he wrote Hebrews chapter 1?

In fact, with regards to Hebrews chapter 1, you didn't even address it, you brusquely brushed it off as a biblical contradiction and then still insist that nowhere in the Bible is Jesus equated to God. Also with regards to John 1:1,14 you have been suspiciously quiet about that. I'd like to hear what you think about those verses. In short, "The Word was God and was with God in the beginning, became flesh and dwelt among them and they beheld his glory." Is that too vague? Can the Word be referring to something else?

I can't seem to find the verse you are list to try and support point (1) either i.e. "1 John 5:7"...is it chapter 1 or 5?...please can you clarify which one you are talking about?

My bad, forget about it.

[reggie_woic]

The idea of three Gods and the idea of a none-existent one is very attractive to non-believers...surprise, surprise.
Its almost like the selective notions they thrive on MUST be contrary to our established beliefs. Now i'm not pointing a finger at anyone, but its hard to believe otherwise.

"I am the Lord, your God. You shall not have other Gods besides me"

[Kurio-City]

Originally Posted by ndigila

Okay I'll try one last time. Although I guess I'm just repeating myself. If you treated the Bible as the final authority, this is what you'd get.

1. The Father is God. (I don't think I need to prove that).
2. The Son is God. (John 1:1,14, Hebrews 1)
3. The Son is from God. (As per those Bible verses you've given)
4. The Holy spirit is from God. (As you've proved)
5. The Holy spirit is God. (Acts 5:3-5)

1. Agreed
2. Disagreed...The only things about Jesus and his relationship to god in John 1 are the folowing:

John.1
[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
...
[49] Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
[50] Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.


3. agreed
4. agreed
5. Disagreed...Acts 5: 3-5 is only a loose intepratation of the trinity and not direct i.e. holy ghost IS god. Furthermore, your attempt to make the statement of Jim be equal to the pastor is not necessarily true but you choose to intepret it that way based on your bias. You say...

Originally Posted by ndigila

Acts 5:3-5 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own, and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.


If I say "Why have you lied to Jim? Its very bad to lie to the Pastor." Would you say that to conclude that Jim is the Pastor is a vague interpretation?

Let's say if the quote was just changed from the names to say: "But Peter said, Ndigila, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to Kurio-City, and to keep back part of the meaning of the verses? Whiles it remained, was it not the thine own, and after it was shown, was it not in thine own will? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine bible? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God"

I think my point has been made clear. The verse still makes alooooooooot of sense and is definately still relevant if you were to replace my name with holy ghost, but obviously it does not make me or the holy ghost God!! I think you need to be objective here by providing clear obvious verses that do not render themselves to misintepration or bias.

The verses that I would consider to be proof are those that are clear and obvious (such as those of john 1 above about jesus being the son of god), but when scholars and men have to go and intepret the meaning as you attempt to in Acts 5 above, then it is only open to subjectivity. So until you can give me CLEAR, STRAIGHTFORWARD quotes from the bible on Jesus being god or the holy ghost being god, without biased inteprations from yourself or other scholars, we will agree to disagree on this matter because it seems like we are going round in circles by having you providing me on non-solid quotes that are vague and involve alot of assumptions on the part of the reader.

[ndigila]

1. Agreed
2. Disagreed...The only things about Jesus and his relationship to god in John 1 are the folowing:

John.1
[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
...
[49] Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
[50] Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.


Kurio, you are still not addressing the verses I stated (John 1:1,14), why are you overlooking them? Can you please tell me what John was referring to? The Word was with God in the beginning and was God and became flesh and revealed his glory to the apostles. And what about Hebrews 1?


3. agreed
4. agreed
5. Disagreed...Acts 5: 3-5 is only a loose intepratation of the trinity and not direct i.e. holy ghost IS god. Furthermore, your attempt to make the statement of Jim be equal to the pastor is not necessarily true but you choose to intepret it that way based on your bias.

Let's say if the quote was just changed from the names to say: "But Peter said, Ndigila, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to Kurio-City, and to keep back part of the meaning of the verses? Whiles it remained, was it not the thine own, and after it was shown, was it not in thine own will? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine bible? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God"

I think my point has been made clear. The verse still makes alooooooooot of sense and is definately still relevant if you were to replace my name with holy ghost, but obviously it does not make me or the holy ghost God!! I think you need to be objective here by providing clear obvious verses that do not render themselves to misintepration or bias.


Kurio, you are breaking the rules of interchangeability, but i'll leave that alone. Based on what you've written, we have totally different understandings on what the Holy Spirit is and his role. So I need you tell me, what the Holy Spirit is, and what his role is in a believer/non-believer's life.


The verses that I would consider to be proof are those that are clear and obvious (such as those of john 1 above about jesus being the son of god), but when scholars and men have to go and intepret the meaning as you attempt to in Acts 5 above, then it is only open to subjectivity. So until you can give me CLEAR, STRAIGHTFORWARD quotes from the bible on Jesus being god or the holy ghost being god, without biased inteprations from yourself or other scholars, we will agree to disagree on this matter because it seems like we are going round in circles by having you providing me on non-solid quotes that are vague and involve alot of assumptions on the part of the reader.


I await your response to John 1:1,14 and Hebrews 1. While you're at it, tell me how this is not a straightforward quote

Phil 2:11 And every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

With regards to the Holy Spirit, you have to tell me what you think the Holy Spirit is and his role before we can proceed.

[ATLian]

I think that this verse clear up once and for all that the Trinity is a hoax:

John 14:28 - For my father is greater than I

If Jesus himself can say that, then clearly he and god are not one, they are not the same, and the Trinity is but another man-made hoax!


These verses also don't support the Trinity:

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

When he uttered "my god my god", clearly he was speaking to something that isn't himself. It would be kinda mad for someone to ask himself why he has forsaken himself!