[wam7]

THE TRINITY is a "term" that is not found in the Bible, but a "word" used to describe what is apparent about God in the scriptures. The Bible clearly speaks of GOD THE FATHER, THE SON (Jesus Christ), GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT.
and also clearly presents there is only ONE FGOD. Thus the term "TRI" meaning three, and UNITY meaning one."TRI" plus "UNITY"=TRINITY.
It is a way of acknowledging what the Bible reveals to us about God, that God is yet "three persons" who have the same essence of "DIETY".
GOD THE SON (Jesus) is fully completely God, and The Father is fully completely God. Yet there is only "ONE GOD"
With our limited Human experience its tough, to understand the Trinity.
From the beginning we see God this way in scripture. GENESIS:1:26 Then God said " Let "us" make man in "our" image "In "our" likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, over all the earth and over the creatures, and over the creatures that move along the ground" "The Lord is our God is oneDEUT:6:4
Jesus said, "I and the Father are one JOHN: 10:30

the CONCEPT OF the Tarinity is tough especially if our Faith is weak... we must remember, that the same God, who created the entire universe, mankind, fish of the sea, birds of the air.... is capable of anything.. nothing is impossible for Him... We cannot dare. use our limited Human understanding to figure God out... He is SUPERNATURAL... able TO DO what man cannot do....including coming into the world in the nature of man, in human flesh, through the virgin Mary, as GOD THE SON...JESUS CHRIST.... HE is an AN AMAZING GOD.... and nothing can beat that... loving our Creative, Heavenly fATHER, having a personal with Him, through Jesus Christ, The Savior. Living in this world without Jesus Christ indwelled within us, has got to be the most EMPTY WAY TO LUIVE... We will keep searching for fulfilment, completeness, from the perishing things of ther world... we look for gratification, through drugs, and alcohol, sex, money.. but we stay EMPTY WITHIN...... But with JESUS living within, we are FULLY WHOLE...COMPLETED... n at peace... no anxiety, but ONLY CONTENTMENT....... WE are NOTHING without Christ, but EVERTHING with HIM.....

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by youngben

Hey boss you are very confused here, your analogy points at 4 entities rather than 3 for the trinity.

Government
Executive
Legislature
Judiciary

I dont know what logic you have tumiad here lakini you have separated God and the father, before I tear ur argument into shreds, please advise whether thats a typo ama you stand firm to your analogy, coz my guy, its got holes like a gunned down mungiki suspect

As I said, it's unwise to come up with analogies to try to accurately represent the trinity because they can all be torn to shreds. I don't stand firm by it.

[wanjik]

Originally Posted by wam7

THE TRINITY is a "term" that is not found in the Bible, but a "word" used to describe what is apparent about God in the scriptures. The Bible clearly speaks of GOD THE FATHER, THE SON (Jesus Christ), GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT.
and also clearly presents there is only ONE FGOD. Thus the term "TRI" meaning three, and UNITY meaning one."TRI" plus "UNITY"=TRINITY.
It is a way of acknowledging what the Bible reveals to us about God, that God is yet "three persons" who have the same essence of "DIETY".
GOD THE SON (Jesus) is fully completely God, and The Father is fully completely God. Yet there is only "ONE GOD"
With our limited Human experience its tough, to understand the Trinity.
From the beginning we see God this way in scripture. GENESIS:1:26 Then God said " Let "us" make man in "our" image "In "our" likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, over all the earth and over the creatures, and over the creatures that move along the ground" "The Lord is our God is oneDEUT:6:4
Jesus said, "I and the Father are one JOHN: 10:30

the CONCEPT OF the Tarinity is tough especially if our Faith is weak... we must remember, that the same God, who created the entire universe, mankind, fish of the sea, birds of the air.... is capable of anything.. nothing is impossible for Him... We cannot dare. use our limited Human understanding to figure God out... He is SUPERNATURAL... able TO DO what man cannot do....including coming into the world in the nature of man, in human flesh, through the virgin Mary, as GOD THE SON...JESUS CHRIST.... HE is an AN AMAZING GOD.... and nothing can beat that... loving our Creative, Heavenly fATHER, having a personal with Him, through Jesus Christ, The Savior. Living in this world without Jesus Christ indwelled within us, has got to be the most EMPTY WAY TO LUIVE... We will keep searching for fulfilment, completeness, from the perishing things of ther world... we look for gratification, through drugs, and alcohol, sex, money.. but we stay EMPTY WITHIN...... But with JESUS living within, we are FULLY WHOLE...COMPLETED... n at peace... no anxiety, but ONLY CONTENTMENT....... WE are NOTHING without Christ, but EVERTHING with HIM.....

There are some scriptures which can be misconstrued to support the trinity doctrine. For example, you quoted John 10:30 where Jesus Stated that He and the Father are one. However, Jesus also prayed in John 17:21 "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. " (New International Version). That God, Jesus, and those that he was praying for may be ONE. When you look at both scriptures in context you can clearly see that Jesus wasn't alluding to a trinity, but was simply stating that He and His Father were in unity, i.e. in agreement, and that he prayed that his followers would also share in that unity. The same can be seen if you keep reading into verse 22.
You also quoted Genesis where God said "Let us...". The Bible clearly states that Jesus existed in heaven alongside his Father for eons before coming down to earth, and he shared in creation with his Father. Colossians 1:12-16 speaks of Jesus as the "IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION", and states that in him all things were created. Clearly, if Jesus is referred to as a firstborn of creation, then it means that he HAS a beginning. God, on the other hand, is the Alpha and the Omega. Also read Hebrews 1:2 which says that through Jesus, God created the worlds. Verse 3 refers to Jesus as the exact representation of God's very being. Why? Because Jesus mirrored God's qualities and attributes so PERFECTLY, and carried out God's will so perfectly that even he himself could say "He who has seen me has seen the Father." If you read the rest of Hebrews chapter one you will see Jesus being annointed with oil by GOD, his GOD. It shows that Jesus is in a position of subjection to God his FATHER.

Guys, it's important for us to understand that the Bible does not contradict itself. There are numerous scriptures in the Bible which show Jesus as being in a position of subjection to GOD his FATHER. Jesus is GOD'S SON, but he is NOT God, neither did he EVER claim to be. The only reason why the trinity doctrine is impossible to understand is because it has no Biblical backing. The God we worship today is the same God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and first century Christians, and nowhere in the Bible does it show that all the above people worshiped a TRIUNE God. No, they understood God to be one, and they understood Jesus most favored position as the ONLY begotten Son of God, but nowhere do we see them equating Jesus to God. If you guys are really, trully, honestly seeking answers about the trinity, you will consider it's origin. It's no secret that the trinity became an official church doctrine in 325 AD, during the council of Nicae, headed by Emperor Constantine. But if you look into ancient history you'll notice that the babylonians, egyptians and other ancient peoples worshiped trinitarian gods. If you really want to know the truth about the trinity, google it's history or go to a library and do some research. You'll be suprised.
Anyway, I think I've said enough on this topic.

[Kurio-City]

Originally Posted by ndigila

You have a mistaken understanding of the trinity. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, but the Father is not the Son, nor the Son the Holy Ghost, nor the Holy Ghost the Father. It is unwise to come up with analogies but this is the best I could come up with. [/b]

Dude...that is one and the same thing...

i.e. If "The Father is God" and "the Son is God" and "the Holy Ghost is God"

Then what do you mean by the father is not the sone, nor the holy ghost?? arent's they one entity ama is chritianity polytheist now??

Originally Posted by sinje

Ok people, God is the Farther..Jesus the Son... and then the Holy spirit.
Jesus is the Son of God which makes him the same as God. The Holy spirit descended down from heaven and it went in Jesus making them one.So....Jesus and the holy spirit are one and Jesus himself is God in a jnr version. PEOPLE God is the HOLY of HOLIES.

AMA

God came down disguist as Jesus (for we all know anyone who sees his face shall not live).He did not create us to destroy us...He created us to live. And when He was baptised the holy spirit joined him and thats where he is God the Father..the Son and the Holy spirit.


Be blessed

Quote please...where in the bible it says "God is the Farther..Jesus the Son... and then the Holy spirit."...That is the whole point of this forum....i.e. not opinions, but facts and verses...I already know what the believe is, I am just seeking the verses themself as wam7 was kind enough to give...

Originally Posted by wam7

From the beginning we see God this way in scripture.
GENESIS:1:26 Then God said " Let "us" make man in "our" image In "our" likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, over all the earth and over the creatures, and over the creatures that move along the ground"
"The Lord is our God is one" DEUT:6:4
Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" JOHN:10:30
[/b]

"

1. How do we know this "us" includes Jesus and not the angels who were created before man?

2. I am confused...by saying "the lord our God is ONE" doesn't that contradict the trinity i.e. if the trinity should exist wouldn't it say "the lord our god is three"?

3. I agree, that sentence seems like a good example. But let me ask, how many times do we say, "me and my boyfriend are one", "I love you so much sweety, you are part of me"....we do that like everyday and we never take it literally so how come all of a sudden this verse is taken literaly...And why would I think it is one way and not the other, well, because if they are the same entity, why does Jesus say this?

Mark.10
[18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

And ofcourse we can't forget the verse in one of the previous chapters:

John.5
30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which has sent me.

If it is not of HIS will and the Father's then that means they are different entities.

And that brings me to something else...This thing with God SENT Jesus. God SENT many people to a group of people. Just because he SENT him, it doesn't make him the same...like for Abraham example....

Exod.4
[28] And Moses told Aaron all the words of the Lord who had SENT him, and all the signs which he had commanded him.

Exod.5
[22] And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Lord, wherefore hast thou so evil entreated this people? why is it that thou hast SENT me?

Deut.34
[11] In all the signs and the wonders, which the Lord SENT him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,

And many more that I dare not even bother list...

Originally Posted by wanjik

I personally do not believe in the trinity doctrine. I believe God is the Alpha and the Omega, has no beginning and no end, has always existed. Jesus Christ is God's Son, but he does have a beginning. He was created by God and existed for eons and eons in heaven with his father, and he took part in creation (Colossians 1:15-18), that's why when God was creating, he stated "let us make man in our image." Jesus never ever claimed to be God, but in fact submitted and subjected himself to God his Father. No where does the Bible equate Jesus to God. And even in those scriptures which some may use to back up the trinity doctrine, there is only mention of God and Jesus, but no mention of the Holy Spirit, therefore disproving the doctrine. The Holy Spirit is God's active force, which He sends forth to accomplish His will and purpose e.g. empowering and strengthening us, etc.

Anyway, here is my summary.
- God the Father, the Alpha and Omege, no beginning and no end.
- Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, but who has a beginning (existed in heaven before coming to earth.

I must agree with Wanjik (well atleast to a point). If the Trinity was explained as Wanjik did, then I would not even have started this post. I believe God is at the top, Jesus was sent to the people to enlighten then, and then the holy spirit is also something else that helps God and Jesus. They all are on the same team with God as the leader/Almighty/Utimate/The Only...But Father = son = holy spirit? Is bilaz...So far, the verses I have read have failed to suggest strongly for that argument but all seem to be vaguely based on one or two sentences here and there so I think I will just not attempt to delve into this further vile naona we are all going in circles.

[ndigila]

Dude...that is one and the same thing...

i.e. If "The Father is God" and "the Son is God" and "the Holy Ghost is God"

Then what do you mean by the father is not the sone, nor the holy ghost?? arent's they one entity ama is chritianity polytheist now??

The Trinity is one God existing in 3 distinct entities, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I'm not sure if you're a Christian or not, but according to the Bible, humans also exist as a trinity: body, soul and spirit. These are 3 distinct entities but one human being.


Quote please...where in the bible it says "God is the Farther..Jesus the Son... and then the Holy spirit."...That is the whole point of this forum....i.e. not opinions, but facts and verses...I already know what the believe is, I am just seeking the verses themself as wam7 was kind enough to give...


John 1:1,14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word clearly makes reference to Jesus in these verses. Jesus was God, and with God, begotten of the Father. 2 different entities, no room for flexibility there.

2 John 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Notice the differentiation of entities in the second sentence, the Father and the Son, and yet in the first sentence of the verse, God.

Acts 5:3-5 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own, and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.

Notice in verse 3, Peter says Ananias lied to the Holy Ghost and in verse 5, he says Ananias has lied to God.

Hope this helps.

[ndigila]

There are some scriptures which can be misconstrued to support the trinity doctrine. For example, you quoted John 10:30 where Jesus Stated that He and the Father are one. However, Jesus also prayed in John 17:21 "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. " (New International Version). That God, Jesus, and those that he was praying for may be ONE. When you look at both scriptures in context you can clearly see that Jesus wasn't alluding to a trinity, but was simply stating that He and His Father were in unity, i.e. in agreement, and that he prayed that his followers would also share in that unity. The same can be seen if you keep reading into verse 22.

Agreed.

You also quoted Genesis where God said "Let us...". The Bible clearly states that Jesus existed in heaven alongside his Father for eons before coming down to earth, and he shared in creation with his Father. Colossians 1:12-16 speaks of Jesus as the "IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION", and states that in him all things were created. Clearly, if Jesus is referred to as a firstborn of creation, then it means that he HAS a beginning. God, on the other hand, is the Alpha and the Omega.


Verse 15 calls Jesus the firstborn of all creation, but the reason he is called that is given in verse 16-17

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him And he is before all things, and by him all things consist
The reason Jesus is called the firstborn of all creation is because he is the heir of all creation and having a superior status. The firstborn is a legal term and not a biological one.

The same word is used in verse 18.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have preeminence.
Here, the word is clearly used as a legal term; having conquered death, he rules and reigns over it.


Also read Hebrews 1:2 which says that through Jesus, God created the worlds.

This further strengthens my point above.


Verse 3 refers to Jesus as the exact representation of God's very being. Why? Because Jesus mirrored God's qualities and attributes so PERFECTLY, and carried out God's will so perfectly that even he himself could say "He who has seen me has seen the Father." If you read the rest of Hebrews chapter one you will see Jesus being annointed with oil by GOD, his GOD. It shows that Jesus is in a position of subjection to God his FATHER.


Hebrews Chapter 1 actually makes the strongest case for Jesus being God.
Heb 1:3-6 (KJV)

3 ...when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they;
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angles of God worship him.

When the Father brought the son into the world, he commanded all the angels to worship him. I'm sure you're no stranger to the Bible, so you'll know that anything/anyone to be worshipped other than God is forbidden by God himself. There's only 2 ways to proceed from here
1. The Bible has a contradiction
2. Jesus is God
Chaguo ni lako. (Hope you choose the better option )

Verse 7-9 (KJV)

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angles spirits and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

In verse 8 the Father tells the Son, his throne is for ever; he even calls the Son God. In verse 9 God anoints God with the oil of gladness. How are we supposed to interpret this? God anoints himself, or the Father anoints the Son, the heir of all creation and having preeminence over all things?



Jesus is GOD'S SON, but he is NOT God, neither did he EVER claim to be.



Phillipians 2:5-11 Gives us the reason why Jesus ever hardly claimed to be God

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father


Jesus humbled himself, he didn't think it appropriate to flaunt his deity all over the place. Instead he chose to appear like a normal man. Infact, in various places in the Gospels, when Jesus performed miracles, he told the people to keep silent about it. For the sake of brevity of this already long post, I won't list those verses here, but i'm sure you've encountered them in your Bible study.


The only reason why the trinity doctrine is impossible to understand is because it has no Biblical backing.


That's not the reason. The reason why its hard to understand is because its hard to understand. The Bible cleary points to 3 distinct entities, (the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost) being God and at the same time points to One God. There are a few ways to proceed, given such a dilemma
1. Try to prove that the Son and the Holy Ghost are not God (this would imply ignoring some Bible verses)
2. Declare that the Bible has contradictions (Atlian please don't read this )
3. The trinity doctrine; which is difficult to comprehend but Biblically based.


The God we worship today is the same God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and first century Christians, and nowhere in the Bible does it show that all the above people worshiped a TRIUNE God. No, they understood God to be one, and they understood Jesus most favored position as the ONLY begotten Son of God, but nowhere do we see them equating Jesus to God. If you guys are really, trully, honestly seeking answers about the trinity, you will consider it's origin. It's no secret that the trinity became an official church doctrine in 325 AD, during the council of Nicae, headed by Emperor Constantine. But if you look into ancient history you'll notice that the babylonians, egyptians and other ancient peoples worshiped trinitarian gods. If you really want to know the truth about the trinity, google it's history or go to a library and do some research. You'll be suprised.


The Trinity does not need a source outside the Bible for a foundation.

Hope this explains everything.
Poleni for the long post.

[Kurio-City]

Originally Posted by ndigila

[color="blue"]
The Trinity is one God existing in 3 distinct entities, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I'm not sure if you're a Christian or not, but according to the Bible, humans also exist as a trinity: body, soul and spirit. These are 3 distinct entities but one human being.

So what you are saying is that the three make up god. i.e.

Since mind + body + spirit = human

Where one cannot exist without the other yet, they are DIFFERENT and important; in the case of the trinity, that would be...

father + son (jesus) + holy ghost = god

So one cannot exist without the other, yet they are DIFFERENT. Logically, this would mean that, Jesus must be lesser than God. (It is God who sent him on earth in the first place for salvation after all). So my question is, why do you claim Jesus is equal to God as below even after the logical premise above makes that impossible?

Originally Posted by ndigila

[color="blue"]

Hebrews Chapter 1 actually makes the strongest case for Jesus being God.
Heb 1:3-6 (KJV)

3 ...when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they;
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angles of God worship him.

If Jesus is equal to god, then why would he say the following...please explain:

Mark.10
[18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

As per the verse you present that god asked the angels to worship jesus, then that would mean the bible is contradictory i.e. at one point claiming that he is god, the next jesus saying himself that he is not equal.

BTW, have you ever noticed, jesus never himself said he was equal to God. It was only after he died that this came up in the bible when others called him so...interesting...

[ndigila]

So what you are saying is that the three make up god. i.e.

Since mind + body + spirit = human

Where one cannot exist without the other yet, they are DIFFERENT and important; in the case of the trinity, that would be...

father + son (jesus) + holy ghost = god

So one cannot exist without the other, yet they are DIFFERENT. Logically, this would mean that, Jesus must be lesser than God. (It is God who sent him on earth in the first place for salvation after all). So my question is, why do you claim Jesus is equal to God as below even after the logical premise above makes that impossible?


I do not claim that Jesus is equal to God, the Bible does. (Read my previous post on Hebrews 1). I'm not about to try to explain the mechanics behind the trinity. All I have to offer is what the Bible says. The Bible clearly differentiates the 3 entities and calls each one of them God. That kills the father=son=holy ghost theory and the different-manifestation-of-the-same-entity theory.



If Jesus is equal to god, then why would he say the following...please explain:

Mark.10
[18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

As per the verse you present that god asked the angels to worship jesus, then that would mean the bible is contradictory i.e. at one point claiming that he is god, the next jesus saying himself that he is not equal.

BTW, have you ever noticed, jesus never himself said he was equal to God. It was only after he died that this came up in the bible when others called him so...interesting


I explained it in my previous post. Incase you missed it

Phillipians 2:5-11 (KJV);

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father


Jesus was humble. He didn't think it appropriate to flaunt his deity all over the place. He wanted to appear a normal man. There's numerous examples where Jesus performed miracles and told his disciples not to tell other people what they've seen. Here's one of them.

Mark 1:42-44 (KJV)
42 And as soon as he [Jesus] had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed.
43 And he straitly charged him, and forthwith sent him away;
44 And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.


When Jesus healed the leper, he told him not to tell anyone. Why? Because of his humility. But does that take anything away from his ability to do miracles? No.

Here's another.
Mark 1:23-25,34 (KJV)
23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? Art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.


Here, the demon says he knows that Jesus is the Son of God and Jesus quickly silences him. Does this mean that Jesus is not the Son of God? No.


34 And he healed many that were sick of diverse diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered no the devils to speak, because they knew him.


One final thought, Kurio, based on your statement that the Bible is contradictory, remember you are debating with someone who believes that the Bible is the final authority regarding any Christian doctrinal issue. If we don't agree on this, then this debate will be an endless waste of time because we are using mutually exclusive standards. I can only tell you what the Bible says about the Trinity, and, based on Bible verses, rule out what the Trinity is not.

To summarize my points:
1. The Trinity is One God existing as 3 distinct entities: The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghost. (1 John 5:7)
2. The Trinity is NOT three different manifestations of the same entity. The Bible shows the 3 entities interacting with each other.
3. The Trinity is NOT three Gods. The Bible says that God is One.

Again, poleni for long post.

[ATLian]

I'm relatively new here at Mashada, but from your posts, is it right for me to conclude that you were a Christian in the near or distant past?

Ndigila,

I was raised as a Christian, attended a very Christian high school, and went to chruch from as early as I could remember, where I got baptized, confirmed, the entire works. So yes, I was a Christian till 1st or 2nd form. I just took the questions that we all have to the next level and ended up becoming an atheist.

BTW, talking about blasphemy, I read a very interesting quote:

Every act of blasphemy is a kind of tribute to God, because it is based on belief. If anyone doubts this, let him sit down seriously and try to think blasphemous thoughts about Thor. - British author G.K. Chesterton

[Dynamic]

Originally Posted by Kurio-City

Hey y'all! Was again trying to get a better understanding of the trinity but since I didn't want to reinvent the wheel I looked to find old posts on it but I only found these two:

http://www.mashada.com/forums/religi...its-knees.html

Three Dispensations and Trinity

I read both from head-to-toe but I still have my question unanswered. Please no attacks against Christianity or religion as a whole here as I am hoping for an answer specifically about the concept of trinity. I believe in God, Jesus and a the Holy Spirit but I am just seeking teachings on how the three are one i.e. Jesus = God and Holy Spirit = God.

In trying to get a better understanding of the trinity, I went and did research on the internet to find direct quotes and explanations from the bible and couldn't find it. Instead, I read that apparently the concept of trinity originated in the 4th and 5th centuries AD, with the rationale for provided by Augustine of Hippo (354-430), but is not explicitly in the bible (The Doctrine of the Holy Trinity )...explains why I had the trouble finding it in the first place : |

Except for inserts that were made later into the new versions, I read that there is no unambiguous reference to the trinity in the entire New Testament, nor are there any strong suggestions or foreshadowings of the trinity of persons in the Old Testament. I confimed this when I tried to search the bible. So obviously this raised alarms in my head as how could I be convinced to believe in if it is not in the Holy book in the first place??? Then I found about the Unitarian Churches of God who don't believe in the trinity. They believe that the trinity is not monotheic and that instead the God is one as the all powerful and his son was Jesus as a seperate entity begotten by a virgin...I didn't even know these guys existed!! I thought to be a Chrsitian you have to believe in the trinity...I guess you learn something new everyday.

Anyone know of this? And if this post-insertion of the trinity in the bible is the truth and fact, how come most Christians do not see it this way?

I am Kurious...Any trinity believers out there with answers?

Kuriocity, I'd type you a lengthy explanation or an answer to your quest, but I'm kinda tired right now, so I'll give it to you in a quick nutshell. You ought not look for the trinity in the bible as a means to justify it's veracity. The word nothing more than a uniting word that describes the relationship between God the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Just the same way the whole concept of the rapture describes the supposed christ's descention to earth to get his people (that's for another thread). The word Rapture is not written in the bible, but anyone who's well versed with the Bible's contents is familiar by what the apostle Paul spoke of. Having said that, here's the meat or perhaps the sweetest thing about the trinity. To the skeptic or the curious such as yourself, the concept of the trinity can appear as one that's very absurd or doesn't make sense at all, because logically, 1+1+1 is not equal to 1. The beauty of it is that this concept only makes sense in the Christian faith. Allow me to defend that statement. One of man's many quests in his lifetime is to find unity in all the diversity around him; the very reason why we go to school, to find unity out of diversity (University = unity out of diversity); to find the quintescence or so to speak (we already have water, earth, wind and fire. What's the one that which unites these four?)

Curiosity- I'd expalin more, but I'm kinda worn out. However, I'll leave you with this. When you get a chance, swing by barnes and noble and get yourself a copy of Dr. Ravi Zacharia's "Who is God?" This book will answer a lot of your question, for it approaches such questions from a philosophical standpoint with reality as it's backdrop. It'll set you back about twenty bucks, but it'll be worth it. Write back in here and let me know what you think of it. Also, vizit Home Page - Ravi Zacharias International Ministries (RZIM), click the radio links, and listen to some of his works. It's the very thing you're looking for.