[ATLian]

So ATLian and Kurio, you wonder where the trinity is mentioned in the bible.
well, the word "trinity" itself isn't in the bible. but in a nutshell
matt 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Reggie,

how does the statement in red equate to god being the son being the holy spirit, then the three of them being one, and all one being three? Talk of stretching a simple statement. If the Trinity actually did exist, don't you think it would have been mentioned several times in unambiguous terms in the Bible?

The reason the Trinity exists is because some men voted for it. The reason they voted for it is because many of the early Christians started worshipping Christ directly. To prevent Christianity from being a polytheistic (many gods) religion, these men voted to make god equal to Jesus, and vice versa. If those men had voted not to create the Trinity, right now you'd be arguing how Jesus cannot be god!



p.s ATLian, there's nothing going on in wichita (as always)

Pole man. I travel like crazy, I've been all over the country. Lakini why lie, Wichita ranks huko chini amongst the cities I want to go to, right before Boise, Idaho and Spokane, Washington. Move to the ATL once you're done with chuo, it's bigger, more cosmopolitan, better weather, affordable, plus it has the nations most affluent black community. Not to mention we have the finest chics in the country! Plus we're in the Bible Belt, so your Christian side would still be very satisfied...

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by ndigila

What in your opinion is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

I think it is an absolutely stupid concept to claim that you can forgive a man for blaspheming against both god and Jesus, but never the Holy Spirit, while they are one and the same thing! If Jesus is god is the Holy Spirit, then blaspheming against Jesus should also be unforgiveable since it is like blaspheming the Holy Spirit! And, blaspheming against the Holy Ghost should be forgiveable becaus eit is like blaspheming against Jesus!

Anyway, I addressed this issue a while back. I've pasted my old article below. Songa, please don't read this. It is about protecting kids from child molesters, pedophiles and murderers, which you have shown not to be your strongest point!


Amy Sue Seitz, and the only unforgiveable sin

This is a very sad, but true story. Some psycho called Theodore Francis Frank kidnapped Ms. Amy Sue Seitz. He forced her to drink alcohol, raped her repeatedly, then tortured her horribly with a pair of pliers. He squeezed both her nipples in the pliers with such force that her nipples were left as flat as a paper. Then he peeled off her skin with the same pliers while she was still alive. From there he punched her head repeatedly and with such brute force that her skull cracked in numerous places resulting in a massive brain hemorrhage. Then he raped Amy again and again and when he was satisfied, he strangled her to death. He then threw her body into a trash heap on his way home. Some guy's dogs then found the body and ravaged it some more before their owner realized what the meat being ravaged was, and called the cops. Theodore Francis Frank was 43 years old, while Amy Sue Seitz was a 24 month old, 32 pounds heavy, 32 inches tall baby girl!

It says in the bible in Mathew 12:31-32, Mark 3:29 and Luke 12:10 that EVERY sin can be forgiven except one. This ONE unforgiveable sin is not the grave sins of pedophilia or infanticide committed by Theodore Francis Frank - the one sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Mathew 12:31-32: "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

I think - and this is the point of my post - that of all the sins god could have chosen to make unforgivable, he chose the wrong one.

According to the bible, if Theodore Francis Frank confessed his sins, asked for forgiveness and accepted Christ as his personal savior, he would go to heaven and live happily ever after with god, Abraham, Elijah, etc. On the other hand, let's assume that Sherry Roberts (Amy's mum) came and saw her daughters body. Of course she'd be totally devastated and grief-stricken. Let's assume that in the heat of the moment she cursed the holy ghost, asking how the holy ghost could let that happen to her daughter. The bible says because Sherry blasphemed the Holy Ghost – even if the blasphemous words were uttered in a grief-stricken moment - she would be doomed to eternal hell fire. It doesn't matter if she had been a godly person before Amy's death, and continued to be a godly person after. It doesn't matter that she only blasphemed because of the grief of seeing her daughter's body. According to the bible and Jesus, Sherry would roast slowly forever in hell with Pol Pot and Hitler, while Theodore Francis Frank would spend the rest of his life in Heaven, playing nyabs with Angel Gabriel and Moses, and having Sunday coffee every once in a while with Mother Theresa. Heck, he might even bump into Amy there every once in a while! WTF?

My question is, why would god view the attrocities committed to Amy as forgivable, then view Sherry's blasphemy as unforgivable? How can this view be fair, and how can a fair god take such a view. Of course I have a ton of other related questions - like what sort of god would create Theodore Francis Frank? Why didn't god stop him as her nipples were being flattened to pulp? Why didn't god stop him before he raped her for the Nth time?

I don't believe in god, but if I did, there is no way I would worship a god with such twisted priorities, or a god who allows such things to happen!

[Kurio-City]

Originally Posted by reggie_woic

So ATLian and Kurio, you wonder where the trinity is mentioned in the bible.
well, the word "trinity" itself isn't in the bible. but in a nutshell
matt 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

if you want, go through the tertullian writings in my last post.

Okay, so how does that mean they are one and the same? If I pledge in my country and say..."I pledge my allegiance to the president, vice president and the supreme court"....does that mean they are one and the same??

I am not saying provide a sentence that the three words, "father", "son", and "holy spirit" are put together but one where it is explicit that the father IS the son, the son IS the father, the father IS the holy spirit, the son IS the holy spirit etc...All I could find were the following....


Mark
[18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

When I read from the old mashada post...I think Mbajuni broke down the issue quite well...

Originally Posted by Mbajuni

>
>The Bible teaches that the Father is
>God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The
>Bible also teaches that there is only one God.

Could you please provide me with the direct quotes of these teachings from the bible i.e. that "the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God". I have searched high and low and failed to find aequate ones. So far I have only been able to come up with these ones in relation to the holy spirit...

Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit OF God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Isa.63
[14] As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit OF the Lord caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.


***OF could indicate part of as in. Angel of God, prophet of God etc. Plus I was wondering, if is god the only one with a holy spirit as it states elsewhere in a similar fashion:

Sus.1
[45] Therefore when she was led to be put to death, the Lord raised up the holy spirit OF a young youth whose name was Daniel:


***The other ones I found also made it appear like the holy spirit is a part of god or belongs to god but not that IT IS god by stating "HIS holy spirit". Could that be that the holy spirit belongs to god such as his angel Gabriel since an angel is holy and is not man but is considered a spirit so = holy spirit??

1Thes.4
[8] He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us HIS holy Spirit.

Isa.63
[10] But they rebelled, and vexed HIS holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

[11] Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put HIS holy Spirit within him?


***Quotes about the father I could find quotes where god is refferred to father but doesn't really suggest he has actually begotten anyone since God is considered the Father of mankind nad to all of us as well so this is not really conclusive but still fesible to say that The Father is God.


***About the son thing, I was able to find the following relevant quotes:

John.3
[35] The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Gal.4
[6] And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

1John.4
[14] And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.


But again since everyone else is also called sons i.e. "ye are sons" from Gal.4, it is also challenging to tell if Jesus (PBUH) was the son figuratively speaking or he really was.

The quotes I have found so far indicate Jesus (PBUH) or the son if you want to call him as being under the guidance of god (i.e. the father) but never states that he IS god. The quotes I found are:

John.8
[16] And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father THAT HAS SENT ME.

John.5
30] I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father WHICH HAS SENT ME.

================================================== ====

The important point I am trying to get across is that even if I accept that jesus is the son of god (Astaghfirullah), I am still left clueless as to where those quotes are that state:

holy spirit = god
son/jesus = god

I can understand the concept of trinity if it were that there is God, there is Jesus who is/isn't his son (according to what you choose to believe) and then there is this other dude out there known as the holy spirit and that these three are seperate entities working together for the common good. With God being the ultimate power of all three, the one, the only. THAT, I can understand. I actually DO believe in that, I believe in God, his prophet Jesus and the Holy spirit Gabriel. But I just can't get my head wrapped around the "jesus is god, holy spirit is god" idea because I am yet to find any direct statement from jesus himself saying so.

So I basically am still waiting to see any quotes that form the basis of this core christian teaching that Jesus (PBUH) is god, and that the holy spirit is god or am I reading the wrong bible? Please enlighten me on this...

From the post TRINITY THEOLOGY and why it is bringing Christianity to it's knees, I noticed the answer to the verse was never found but I thought to bring up the question again anyway in the hope that someone may have the answer to it but I am not holding my breath to get that quote anymore...But no sweat, it seems like my question has been answered anyway by: 1) the lack of a quote indicating that there are no teachings of the trinity in the bible; and 2) that it is recorded in history that the trinity was added and voted to be included by the church after-the-fact to consolidate the three entitites and make christianity seem like a monotheist religion.

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by ATLian

I think it is an absolutely stupid concept to claim that you can forgive a man for blaspheming against both god and Jesus, but never the Holy Spirit, while they are one and the same thing! If Jesus is god is the Holy Spirit, then blaspheming against Jesus should also be unforgiveable since it is like blaspheming the Holy Spirit! And, blaspheming against the Holy Ghost should be forgiveable becaus eit is like blaspheming against Jesus!

Anyway, I addressed this issue a while back. I've pasted my old article below. Songa, please don't read this. It is about protecting kids from child molesters, pedophiles and murderers, which you have shown not to be your strongest point!


Amy Sue Seitz, and the only unforgiveable sin

This is a very sad, but true story. Some psycho called Theodore Francis Frank kidnapped Ms. Amy Sue Seitz. He forced her to drink alcohol, raped her repeatedly, then tortured her horribly with a pair of pliers. He squeezed both her nipples in the pliers with such force that her nipples were left as flat as a paper. Then he peeled off her skin with the same pliers while she was still alive. From there he punched her head repeatedly and with such brute force that her skull cracked in numerous places resulting in a massive brain hemorrhage. Then he raped Amy again and again and when he was satisfied, he strangled her to death. He then threw her body into a trash heap on his way home. Some guy's dogs then found the body and ravaged it some more before their owner realized what the meat being ravaged was, and called the cops. Theodore Francis Frank was 43 years old, while Amy Sue Seitz was a 24 month old, 32 pounds heavy, 32 inches tall baby girl!

It says in the bible in Mathew 12:31-32, Mark 3:29 and Luke 12:10 that EVERY sin can be forgiven except one. This ONE unforgiveable sin is not the grave sins of pedophilia or infanticide committed by Theodore Francis Frank - the one sin is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

Mathew 12:31-32: "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

I think - and this is the point of my post - that of all the sins god could have chosen to make unforgivable, he chose the wrong one.

According to the bible, if Theodore Francis Frank confessed his sins, asked for forgiveness and accepted Christ as his personal savior, he would go to heaven and live happily ever after with god, Abraham, Elijah, etc. On the other hand, let's assume that Sherry Roberts (Amy's mum) came and saw her daughters body. Of course she'd be totally devastated and grief-stricken. Let's assume that in the heat of the moment she cursed the holy ghost, asking how the holy ghost could let that happen to her daughter. The bible says because Sherry blasphemed the Holy Ghost – even if the blasphemous words were uttered in a grief-stricken moment - she would be doomed to eternal hell fire. It doesn't matter if she had been a godly person before Amy's death, and continued to be a godly person after. It doesn't matter that she only blasphemed because of the grief of seeing her daughter's body. According to the bible and Jesus, Sherry would roast slowly forever in hell with Pol Pot and Hitler, while Theodore Francis Frank would spend the rest of his life in Heaven, playing nyabs with Angel Gabriel and Moses, and having Sunday coffee every once in a while with Mother Theresa. Heck, he might even bump into Amy there every once in a while! WTF?

My question is, why would god view the attrocities committed to Amy as forgivable, then view Sherry's blasphemy as unforgivable? How can this view be fair, and how can a fair god take such a view. Of course I have a ton of other related questions - like what sort of god would create Theodore Francis Frank? Why didn't god stop him as her nipples were being flattened to pulp? Why didn't god stop him before he raped her for the Nth time?

I don't believe in god, but if I did, there is no way I would worship a god with such twisted priorities, or a god who allows such things to happen!

What exactly is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Yaani the definition.

Did that Theodore guy confess his sins?

[ndigila]

Originally Posted by Kurio-City

I am not saying provide a sentence that the three words, "father", "son", and "holy spirit" are put together but one where it is explicit that the father IS the son, the son IS the father, the father IS the holy spirit, the son IS the holy spirit

You have a mistaken understanding of the trinity. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, but the Father is not the Son, nor the Son the Holy Ghost, nor the Holy Ghost the Father. It is unwise to come up with analogies but this is the best I could come up with. Think of God as the Government, the Father as the Executive, the Son as the Legislature, and the Holy Spirit as the Judiciary.

John 1:1,14 (KJV): In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, (the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.

Acts 5:3-4 (KJV): But Peter said to Ananias, why has Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost and keep back part of the price of the land? While it remained, was in not thine own? and as it was sold, was it not in thine own power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

[ATLian]

Originally Posted by ndigila

What exactly is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Yaani the definition.

Did that Theodore guy confess his sins?

Blasphemy is defaming god. So blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is just a defamation of the Holy Spirit.

Theodore Frank - no idea if he confessed. I'd think he did, as most death row inmates do. He was on death row in Cali for 23 years before he died peacefully in his sleep or something like that. Check out

Amy Sue Seitz's Story

it has more gory details of what Frank did.

If you read that, you just have to hope that Frank did not confess and go to heaven. If I was in heaven and I bumped into Frank, I would definitely try to kill him.

[ndigila]

Blasphemy is defaming god. So blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is just a defamation of the Holy Spirit.


Let's look at the Bible verse in context, (Matthew 12:22-32)

Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The definition of wherefore is given by answers.com as
1. For what purpose or reason; why
2. Therefore

In short, Jesus casts out a demon, the Pharisees accuse him of using the power of Beelzebub, Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand and then concludes by saying blasphemy against the Holy spirit is an unpardonable sin. Therefore, it is right to conclude that the Pharisees were guilty of blaspheming the holy spirit. Your definition falls short in explaining how the Pharisees were guilty of committing that sin.


If you read that, you just have to hope that Frank did not confess and go to heaven. If I was in heaven and I bumped into Frank, I would definitely try to kill him

I'm relatively new here at Mashada, but from your posts, is it right for me to conclude that you were a Christian in the near or distant past?

[wanjik]

I personally do not believe in the trinity doctrine. I believe God is the Alpha and the Omega, has no beginning and no end, has always existed. Jesus Christ is God's Son, but he does have a beginning. He was created by God and existed for eons and eons in heaven with his father, and he took part in creation (Colossians 1:15-18), that's why when God was creating, he stated "let us make man in our image." Jesus never ever claimed to be God, but in fact submitted and subjected himself to God his Father. No where does the Bible equate Jesus to God. And even in those scriptures which some may use to back up the trinity doctrine, there is only mention of God and Jesus, but no mention of the Holy Spirit, therefore disproving the doctrine. The Holy Spirit is God's active force, which He sends forth to accomplish His will and purpose e.g. empowering and strengthening us, etc.

Anyway, here is my summary.
- God the Father, the Alpha and Omege, no beginning and no end.
- Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, but who has a beginning (existed in heaven before coming to earth.

[sinje]

Ok people, God is the Farther..Jesus the Son... and then the Holy spirit.
Jesus is the Son of God which makes him the same as God. The Holy spirit descended down from heaven and it went in Jesus making them one.So....Jesus and the holy spirit are one and Jesus himself is God in a jnr version. PEOPLE God is the HOLY of HOLIES.

AMA

God came down disguist as Jesus (for we all know anyone who sees his face shall not live).He did not create us to destroy us...He created us to live. And when He was baptised the holy spirit joined him and thats where he is God the Father..the Son and the Holy spirit.


Be blessed

[youngben]

Originally Posted by ndigila

You have a mistaken understanding of the trinity. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God, but the Father is not the Son, nor the Son the Holy Ghost, nor the Holy Ghost the Father. It is unwise to come up with analogies but this is the best I could come up with. Think of God as the Government, the Father as the Executive, the Son as the Legislature, and the Holy Spirit as the Judiciary.

Hey boss you are very confused here, your analogy points at 4 entities rather than 3 for the trinity.

Government
Executive
Legislature
Judiciary

I dont know what logic you have tumiad here lakini you have separated God and the father, before I tear ur argument into shreds, please advise whether thats a typo ama you stand firm to your analogy, coz my guy, its got holes like a gunned down mungiki suspect