[Kigan]

Christians shun intelligence and hide under the mask of faith alone.
Is it because He cannot pass the most credible and widely accepted human tests?

It's time we solved the two biggest questions we have about God the same we humans have solved all other issues before.

Today we put God to test without any favors on Him - 100% under the human systems.No referrecne at all to the bible or it's history!


Prepare your minds for a battle for your soul. Right here. Right now.

It a long post, bear with me, but don't you think you've waited too long for this? so hold on for a while. Read the whole post.

So this is how we will do it. we will throw the questions to human expertise.

Since the two major questions we have about God are these:
1. Does God exist?
2. If God does exist, should he govern my life?

Now,

1. Which is humanity's best method to prove existance? Science
2. what is humanity's best method of determining one's right to govern? Democracy

Unless there are objections thus far, we shall proceed.
So we have determined. the most credible tests for God are science and democracy.
We'll do just that...

1. Using science to answer the question -Does God exist?


Chi-square and stepwise logistic test and analysis

Test period - August 1982 and May 1983

Test venue -
Cardiology Division, Medical Service, San Francisco General
Medical Center, and the Department of Medicine, University of California,
San Francisco.

Sample size: 393 patients.

Performed and documented by:Randolph C. Byrd, MD, 1988.
'Reprint requests for the entire research paper to Randolph C. Byrd, MD, PO Box 179, Big Bear City, CA 92314.'
(please quote in full this section should you re-use this document)


Problem -To evaluate the effects of IP ( Intercessory Prayer) to the Judeo Christian God in a coronary care unit (CCU) population

Between August 1982 and May 1983, 393 patients were entered into a prospective double blind randomized protocol to assess the therapeutic
effects of intercessory prayer.All patients admitted to the coronary care unit
at San Francisco General Hospital were eligible for entry into the study; 57 patients refused for personal reasons, religious convictions, and/or
unwillingness to sign the informed consent.

A randomized double-blind protocol was followed. Over ten months, 393 patients admitted to the CCU were randomized, after signing informed consent, to an intercessory prayer group (192 patients) or to a control group (201 patients). While hospitalized, the first group received IP by participating Christians praying outside the hospital; the control group did not. At entry, chi-square and stepwise logistic analysis revealed no statistical difference between the groups. After entry, all patients had follow-up for the remainder of the admission. The IP group subsequently had a significantly lower severity score based on the hospital course after entry (P < .01). Multivariate analysis separated the groups on the basis of the outcome variables (P < .0001). The control patients required ventilatory assistance, antibiotics, and diuretics more frequently than patients in the IP group. These data suggest that intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God has a beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to a CCU.

From the Cardiology Division, Medical Service, San Francisco General Medical Center, and the Department of Medicine, University of California,San Francisco.
Reprint requests to Randolph C. Byrd, MD, PO Box 179, Big Bear City,
CA 92314.





Question 2.

Which God should govern me?

We shall subject Yahweh to the most credible method man has used to determine right of leadership.

Democratic election.

These are representative figures for world religion patterns. (sources quoted herewith.)


Christianity: 2 billion

Islam: 1.3 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million

Buddhism: 360 million

Chinese traditional religion: 225 million

primal-indigenous: 150 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 14 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha'i: 6 million

Jainism: 4 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 3 million

Tenrikyo: 2.4 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 700 thousand

Scientology: 600 thousand

Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand

Source: David B. Barrett's religious statistics organization, & Encyclopedia Britannica.


Democratic system regulations and results:

1.88% of the global population believes in the existance of a god.

2. 30% of the global population (2 out of 6 billion) ascribe to Yahweh.

3. Atheists constitute less than 3% of total global population.



Even by Human standards,
A. God exists
B. Yahweh is more believed than any of the more than 400,000 gods that have been recorded, (300,000) in india only.
c.Atheists are too few, and have to be classified with other groups.


And that is my evidence.

[reggie_woic]

Today we put God to test without any favors on Him - 100% under the human systems

i'm not done with your post, but thus far you have to agree that if you try to measure the temperature of the sun with a clinical thermometer, you're bound to make huge errors.

[ATLian]

Kigan,

let me ask you a question, and please give me an honest answer.

Someone you care about sana, like your mum, is diagnosed with a major case of cancer. BTW this is a purely hypothetical example, so I really hope that your mum hasn't had the misfortune of being afflicted by cancer. If she has, then I strongly apologise for using an inappropriate example. ANyway, assume it does happen, and it's a major case of cancer to the point where it has spread to 5 of her vital organs. You then have only 2 choices to commence with her curing, and these choices are putting her in either of these two groups:

Group 1 - this group will undergo the best cancer treatment in the best medical facilities operated by the best oncologists (doctors who deal with cancer) in the world with not a word of prayer uttered!

Group 2 - this group will undergo the most serious prayers from the most serious religious figures and faith healers in the world while staying in the most revered holy sites in Christianity but not a single scientific procedure to cure them or to reduce their pain will be performed.

Tell me honestly - which group would you put your mum in?

[ATLian]

These data suggest that intercessory prayer to the Judeo-Christian God has a beneficial therapeutic effect in patients admitted to a CCU.

The "Prayer Experiment" has been done before by many groups. It is totally dismissed as a genuine scientific experiment because it fails in so many of the key elements of a credible scientific experiment. Also, did you know that Hindu, Muslim and Singh groups have performed the same experiments with prayers directed to their gods and they also produced similar results?

Another thing to realize is that many of those who were prayed for DIED and those who were not prayed for SURVIVED! That totally throws the notions that it's prayer that did it down the drain! Man, I can give you the complete low-down on why this "experiment" is bogus but it would take too much time.

I'll leave you with one thought though - did it strike you as odd that the prayers were conducted in the ICU/Cancer unit of a credible hospital manned by credible doctors operating world-class equipment and drugs? If you really want to prove prayer works, why not go where there is no access to any doctors, drugs or medical equipment - like those hell-hole slums and refugee camps in Africa! If you took 60 Rwandeese refugess afflicted by mad cancer in some refugee camp near Lake Tanganyika, and 60 wealthy men also with mad cancer but in Johns Hopkins hospital (ranked the number one hospital in the US) and those 60 refugees all survived through prayer only while the Hopkins patients all died, then you'd have a major major story!



1.88% of the global population believes in the existance of a god.

A while back 100% of the world believed that the world was flat and lightning was god manifesting himself in the sky. 100% of Maasais beleived that they came from the sky. 100% of Kikuyus believed that Mumbi actually gave birth to the 9 women from who all Kyuks are descended. etc etc etc. 100% of Ibos in Okonkwos time believed that twins were evil and they had to be killed at childbirth!

My point is there are times when an overwhelming majority of the world has believed in something to be the undisputed truth. Then science comes along and proves that "truth" to be nothing but a myth.

Like someone once said, "sometimes a majority simply means that all the fools are on one side!"

That's why I see no big deal with 88% of the world being theists.

Another major point to consider is that the number one reason 95% of all theists believe in the god they believe in is only because they were born and raised believing in that god. They never experimented and discovered if other gods are better or if an atheistic life is better. They simply got what they were born into and run with it. Kinda like how if you ask people which is the best country in the world, 99% of Kenyans will say Kenya only because that's their country, and 99% of Angolans will say Angola. This of course totally skews that 99% number coz it's an entirely subjective premise!

[reggie_woic]

um...why separate God from science?
the experiment wasn't God vs science...it was science WITH prayers to God vs
science WITHOUT prayers to God.