[Kigan]

Worried about Atlian - Today, 09:14 AM

There are so many contradictions in your statements Atlian, I don't know where to start.
Make your conclusions. mine is posted below his comments.

All These are quotes from him about God


God on the other hand is nothing but a belief with absolutely no rational, tangible and empirical evidence to prove his existence.
Atlian – April 30th - Christianity a fake forum

I think we all agree that god is a supernatural force, so I won't go into that one.
ATlian 05-22-2007, 09:43 PM on the why forum

I will gladly prove my claim that "it's an undeniable fact that god is a jealous, vindictive, capricious, genocidal, chauvinistic, petty and tyrannical supernatural force"
ATlian 05-22-2007, 09:43 PM on the why forum

He (God) says it himself in Exodus 20:5 when giving the commandments - "for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God". Need I say more?
ATlian 05-22-2007, 09:43 PM

What makes you who trust the word think that the word is true? You have absolutely no evidence to support your belief; it's all based on blind faith. I'll never support a researcher on blind faith, coz in scientific research people have to provide empirical evidence to support their claims.
Atlian 05-03-07, responding to Murugaz, Christianity a fake forum

Everthing I wrote above can be directly quoted and gotten from the Bible. None of that is sh.it that I pulled from my butt
Atlian, 05-22-2007, 09:43 PM the why forum


A summary of Atlians beliefs.
So this is basically what ATlian is saying from these statements.

1. There is no God. He does not exist. But I agree with you all He is a supernatural force. In fact we should argue about that. I won’t go into that even. I believe this non-existent God, about whom there is no evidence, is undoubtedly, a supernatural force.

2. And now that we’ve settled He does not exist, I will show you the character of this non-existent God.
He is not there, but I will prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that He is jealous authoritarian and very petty.

3. I don’t believe the word is true. I believe that in scientific research people have to provide empirical evidence to support their claims. Nevertheless I claim God is a , capricious, genocidal, chauvinistic, petty and tyrannical force and I have evidence! Guys I have evidence! He said it himself. It’s there, aki, he did. It is written in the word. Everything I said about Him being all that is true because I did not pull any of that from my tushy, it is all in the untrue word! Ati? empirical evidence? what is that. i don't have it.


My conclusion

Theory can only be negated by another theory

If our aim is to find out "what is the shape of the earth", i wonder why we are stuck on step 1. "the earth is not flat". As scientists we are using all our research resource and focussing our energy to "the earth isnot flat" and we have not presented a single dot of phase 2, "this is the shape of the earth".
why are we not saying what the truth is. not a drop!

Or should i ask 'what IS our mission? I dont believe were all here for pro -discovery. Money has been poured.

[njack mbaowa]

Kigan,

ATLian might be giving contradictory statements but there is one issue he has tried to get clarified several times (gabzillion, in ATL speak) that i also have been unable to comprehend. ie Gods all knowing nature and our free will.

I might be wrong but you are the dude who was explaining that for instance God knowing what you will do tomorrow at 5:13 does not imply he has made a choice for you. (actually you explanation is the best i've read in this forum) but i still cant reconcile the two.

By the way just to Clarify i do believe in God and any questions i'm asking are not meant to trivialize God but to help me understand.

so lets assume God knows that i will crash into a tree tomortrow at 12. does it not then mean that tomorrow at 11:59 i will be driving and at twelve i will then crash into a tree. Or a clearer illustration might be, God knew that Adam would eat the forbidden fruit. Was it then possible that Adam would refuse to eat the fruit?

[reggie_woic]

Interesting way you put it, njack (weird name, btw).
Here's how i look at it:
Fate cannot determine what you do, but rather is determined by what you do.
Courtesy of free will, you can change your fate by changing how you live
your life...its not fixed.

I might add that if you end up in hell, its because of your bad choices and not because you were meant to go to hell.
so instead of people asking themselves "why did God create me if He knew i was going to hell", they should instead ask themselves "what am i doing to deserve to go to hell".

[reggie_woic]

I'VE GOT IT!!!!!
njack, you asked:

God knew that Adam would eat the forbidden fruit. Was it then possible that Adam would refuse to eat the fruit?

here's how it is.
i am going to eat the apple. God knows i'm going to eat it.
i am not going to eat the apple. God knows i'm not going to eat it.

now look at this:
God knows i'm going to eat it BECAUSE I AM MAKING THE PERSONAL CHOICE TO EAT IT. he can't know i'm going to eat it unless i make the choice..

[njack mbaowa]

Reggie,

what you said makes a whole lot of sense but (yes there is a but) consider for instance a 100m qualifying race with 10 guys in it.only the first 4 will qualify now if one of the judges knows who those four will be (don't ask me how he knows).
at the end of the race the four have to be the ones that the judge knew or if not then he simply had the wrong info, prediction etc

this is kind of how i view life (maybe i'm just being difficult). anyway i wish it was as clear to me as it seems to be with you.

The name Njack is just a messed up corruption of 24's (TV) hero.

the above was in response to your first posting

on your second posting i guess it a Eureka moment

[reggie_woic]

thanks for clarifying the name (LOL!).

i have it all figured in my head..it sounds perfect when i think it, but when i
write it i confuse even myself. i'm glad you caught on to the main idea.

Somehow, i feel that there's a connection between this and the conversation between Neo and The Oracle in "The Matrix" (if you've seen it)...eh, i'll figure it out later.

question for ATLian:
i know i've asked you this before (i forget the answer), but what exactly is your stand? Do you believe that there is no God, or do you think he exists as one huge faulty ego?

[chotadipo]

Originally Posted by reggie_woic

I'VE GOT IT!!!!!
njack, you asked:


here's how it is.
i am going to eat the apple. God knows i'm going to eat it.
i am not going to eat the apple. God knows i'm not going to eat it.

now look at this:
God knows i'm going to eat it BECAUSE I AM MAKING THE PERSONAL CHOICE TO EAT IT. he can't know i'm going to eat it unless i make the choice..

Stop confusing yourself and Njack and justifying your confusion by erronous conclusions. GOD is ALL KNOWING, period. There is no way GOD CANNOT KNOW WHICH CHOICE you will make! Ditto for Adam, God knows all the personal choices you will make, or if you will change them.

[ATLian]

There are so many contradictions in your statements Atlian, I don't know where to start.

Kigan,

nothing I have said is contradictory. The point you bring up is a point I have had to explain here several times. Let me try to explain it once more.

I'm sure we all remember Chinua Achebe's book "Things Fall Apart". From reading that book, we can all speak about the sort of person Okonkwo was - he was a hard worker, a polygamist, short-tempered, wealthy, unforgiving, he was so bogged down by traditions that he killed his "son" Ikemefuna so as not to displease the gods, etc. We can argue here for hours about whether Okonkwo was actually a loving man who disguised it with a macho attitude so as not to come across as soft as his dad. We can argue forever about whether killing Ikemefuna was the right thing to do. etc etc etc.

My point is this - the fact that we are arguing about Okonkwo, Ikemefuna and all those people in "Things Fall Apart" does NOT mean that we believe they existed! Kigan, I hope you grasp that simple point. Yes, it not only is possible and logical to discuss and argue about things you do not believe in, but it is actually something you every single day. e.g. discussing the latest TV program with your pals the next day at work!

And that is why I can discuss god, and when I do discuss god, I discuss him from what is written in the Bible! If the Bible and "Things Fall Apart" both write that god and Okonkwo killed someone who annoyed them, then I will say that god and Okonkwo are both killers despite the fact that I do not believe in them.

We discuss so many people and things we do not believe in. After you watch a great movie or read a good book, you discuss with your pals what those people were trying to potray, etc. It does not mean you believe in them. Everybody knows James Bond is a myth. It doesn't stop us from talking about how smooth and womanizing he is, how good he is with weapons, unarmed combat, driving, etc.

Man, I've beaten this horse so many times, and Chota Dipo even had to explain it again to Reggie juzi. I really hope I've made myself clear this time. I'm suprised that when you went through all those posts in order to come with all the stuff you pasted below that you did not come across that point.

Now to your points:



1. There is no God. He does not exist. But I agree with you all He is a supernatural force.

First of all, I have NEVER said there is no god, I have always said I don't believe there is a god. There is a world of difference between those two. So, what I wrote above is like saying "I don't believe Okonkwo existed" but when discussing Okonkwo from the context of "Things Fall Apart" I can say "we all agree that Okonkwo was a violent and short-tempered man.",



He is not there, but I will prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that He is jealous authoritarian and very petty.

Exactly. It's like telling your kid Okonkwo does not exist, then going on to use the book to prove that Okonkwo ruled his household in a very authoritarian way.



Nevertheless I claim God is a , capricious, genocidal, chauvinistic, petty and tyrannical force and I have evidence!

Again, I write that because that is how the Bible describes him!



Theory can only be negated by another theory

Not exactly. You just need one fact, not a theory, to disprove a scientific theory. e.g. Pythagoras' theorem is still called a theory because man has not measured every single possible right angled triangle to prove that the formula always holds. Maybe there is a right angled triangle out there who's dimensions don't agree with Pythagoras' theorem. If you can find that one triangle, you will negate Pythagoras' theorem.



That said, do you now agree with what I wrote that ""it's an undeniable fact that god is a jealous, vindictive, capricious, genocidal, chauvinistic, petty and tyrannical supernatural force"? You seem to have completely evaded that question.

[ATLian]

question for ATLian:
i know i've asked you this before (i forget the answer), but what exactly is your stand? Do you believe that there is no God, or do you think he exists as one huge faulty ego?

Reggie,

as you know, I do not believe in ANY supernatural beings (gods, angels, spirits, demons, devils, etc. But from how the Bible describes him, the Christian god is one fu.cked up god due to a lot of the crazy inhuman stuff he does in the Bible. Any being that can kill all little innocent baby girls because the king who rules the country those girls live in prays to another god is just sick!

[ATLian]

[By the way just to Clarify i do believe in God and any questions i'm asking are not meant to trivialize God but to help me understand.

Njack,

don't worry, you are allowed to question. I've been questioining for years and nothing has happened to me yet. Trying to understand doesn't trivialize god in any way!

Good luck in getting an answer to this. This was one of the questions that started my ascent into atheism way back in high school. This, and the question of evil.