[connexions]

Originally Posted by Telvin

If Christianity was a science like you are approaching it, then you should do it it among physics, biology, chemistry and anything you regard to as science. I don't know why people who clearly are not Christians are so obsessed with Christianity. Why do you go puzzle over so ethnic religion in some remote village in Peru? My point is that Christianity, like every other religion falls under the laws and definition of religion.
Christians who go at great length to prove Christianity scientifically are to blame too. Religions are rooted in faith and that is why you can legitimately worship a tree and call it your religion without question.
My last point is the observation of the irony presented by a non-believer, yet pretending to understand Christianity. I believe it is ok. to ask in any religion but I am sure some here are not just wanting to understand, but merely undermining one man's religion. You present "facts" that really dont exist. If you look at many people, who hate Christianity, they look for extreme Christian and then extrapolate everything there. The truth is that Christianity, and even African indigenous religions are difficult to understand but they are just religions.
You may try to explain how the miracles works, which makes sense by the way, but this is undermined by the individual effects of these "miracles". If one asked a true to cure him of his cancer and then got cured by the tree, then a special relationship between the tree and the man will always remain. You and I as outsiders may doubt, deny, or even think it is stupid, but that has no relevance on the individual miracle. Bottom line is that religion is an individual thing based on experiences e.g. those miracles, or merely blind faith-no science needed here.

Telvin, I think we are complicating this issue unnecessarily. Unmedicated cures are possible with or without religious beliefs. Medical science is well aware of this mysterious body/mind fact - hence the term placebo effect in drug testing. In some ailments, non active substances are known to be almost as good as active substances. Some of the religious conmen are, I think, aware of this fact.

[Telvin]

Matters of religion have always been difficult as shown throughout histories of different societies. It is important to discuss religious issues but Christianity issues are not going to be solved here on Mashada tonight.
Although religion is an individual thing, it does affect those non-religious people living around religious people. This is best illustrated by religious influence on law, which is based on popular religion. Example is influence of Christianity in many countries and Islamic law in some Muslim country. The problem is that this is nature of humanity. I am sure if everybody was predominantly atheist, then the laws would reflect that and tables would be overturned such that religious minority would feel outcast. There is nothing really that can be done about this fact of humanity. Fair countries offer its citizens the right to peacefully and lawfully practice, or not practice, whatever they choose and I guess that is the best that anyone can offer.
On the other hand, there are laws that are not religion freindly such as right to abort that Christians in some countries have to live under. I think some people just can't see the complexity brought by diversity of human believes. I am sure a real Christian would change the arbotion law in American if possible, meaning that the presence of that law is a compromise. My point is that many non-religious people seen realious people hurting them, but they don't stop to think that they are hurting religious people. It doesn't have to make sense, that's just the way life is. I am sure there is a Muslim somewhere who would be shaking with anger for just knowing I don't believe in Allah.
The result of these conflicts in good governments is compromise. There is a proportion of religious-based laws, but how many laws do you think have nothing at all to do with religion? Don't you think Muslims suffer under Christian laws and vice versa? What about other smaller religions, and atheists? Would christians suffer under atheist governments? I don't see a way by which you can please two different religions equally leave alone several thousand plus one atheist.There are no solutions on this issue here on Mashada but reality checks. The best advice if you suffer so much in a Christian country is to migrate to a more secular country such as Holland, or some poor country or some Island countries with little law and extreme diversity.

[ATLian]

Would christians suffer under atheist governments?

@Telvin,

all that depends on who the atheist is. One thing I guarantee you is if the Christians suffer, it wouldn't be because of atheism - they would suffer because the atheist in power happens to be a nutcase! That's because atheism doesn't have any doctrines or whatever to be followed, therefore any things the atheist gova do to cause sufferings to the Christians are born out of the leaders personalities and not their atheism!

BTW most of the world's dictators are not atheists, and in fact the vilest of them claimed to be staunch followers of variour religions. Even our own guy Moi was touted as the Number One Christian, he's born-again, blah blah blah, yet he has the blood of thousands of Christians on his hands!

[murugaz]

just be alittle more serious about this topic.
wenye wana madoubts about tha word of God waishie waread hiyou Bible kwanza ndio wajue kilakitu before talking!!

[Ndumbai]

oh. ok. Let's talk about God. Really.

Just because you have never been to the bahamas does not mean that bahamas doesn't exist.

You can prove it's non-existance if you really wanted to.
you've never seen it. you've never met anyone who went there.
Those that went to the bahamas tell different stories of how it is.
some say it was nasty, some say it was paradise. some both.
some got lost and din't find it.

But those who have been there personally. physically.Those that have stepped on its rocky roads will tell you.

Bahamas is real.

Albert Einstein, once a non-believer. did before his death step on Bahamas.

so we all have a tough choice, very tough choice.
believe 6,000 years of the most tested ideology in human history, or the simple rantings of some people who have never been to bahamas.


i am a strong critic of modern christianity. The bible is translated all wrong, and the preists have gone gay. I have taken years to study the eral thing.

But to question God - well, I have been to bahamas.

For Kenyans to discuss the existance of God - it dusturbs me.
tell me i am wrong. but when i used to live in a slum house onroute 56, everyone seemed to need God.

Now i am on Sheikh Zayed Rd. and sudddenly kenyans don't pray.
they don't need HIm now. we have our cheques, our rides, the big apartment cribs -heck -heaven and earth are myths. God is a myths, huh.

i intend to stay in bahamas. unless you have anything better than some lame scientific reason from the same scientists that told us we only have nine planets and initially denied the theory of a round earth, i suggest you remember those days you used to kneel and tell me if it din't feel real.

[u_aint_a_hustler]

Poko,get a copy of the quran and the bible and then compare

[ATLian]

Just because you have never been to the bahamas does not mean that bahamas doesn't exist.

@Ndumbai,

I hope you aren't comparing the existence of the Bahamas to the existence of god. The Bahamas does exist! It is not a belief, it's a fact, and you can go there for yourself to check it out. God on the other hand is nothing but a belief with absolutely not rational, tangible and empirical evidence to prove his existence. That's why every religion strongly preaches in blind faith, but none



unless you have anything better than some lame scientific reason from the same scientists that told us we only have nine planets and initially denied the theory of a round earth

You truly have your facts mixed up. Scientists did not tell us that the world was flta, that was the Catholic church. Scientists on the other hand told us that the world was indeed round, and that it's the planets that revolved around the sun, which was contrary to everything the church preached in that day.

As for the planets, all that changed was the man-made definition of a planet. Nothing else. The scientists who deal with space voted that for one of the thousands of objects that revolve around the sun to be called a planet, it must satisfy 3 specific criteria. If it only satisfies 2, like Pluto, it's referred to as a dwarf planet. If it only satisfies one criteria, then I sahau what it's called.

[Ndumbai]

Mr Poko- hunter.
congatulations.
You believe there is a God, but you have never seen or touched him as you claim to be the prove of existance.
Right.
Just a summary of your own statements.
so we've established you're not an aetheist.

you know what that is called? faith.

the kikuyus had it, Kaleos had it, way before the bible. only that bible authors blogged on leather materials called scrolls. that's why we read it today.

so lets see how poko-huntism is unique.
we will look at the similarities in all african, native, christian and even devil worshipping cults have in comon,all except poko-huntism.

all the above believe that:
1. There is a God
2. He is holy, without evil and cannot be mixed or associatde with evil.
3. He knows everything, including our names.
4.He watches us.
5. when we wrong him, or are defiled, the only way to get to him is through blood sacrifice - teh death of al iving creature.

So. Mr.Poko-hunter
of course assuming christianity is wrong, when did you last make a blood sacrifice to atone to God?

what?
never?
are you saying now that along with christianity, even our native beliefs were wrong and despite their incredible coincidence, it is not necessary to give a blood sacrifice for atoning with God?

That or you're Holy. poko-huntism teachings i assume.

well, suppuse you get the point that you cannot believe in God and not require a blood sacrifice to be right with him, which one would you choose:

1. the blood of a goat - the kikuyu or kao or samoan way.
2.The blood of a man, (already offered, by the way) whose coming was foretold, and history bears evidence of his affiliation to a super being.

Mr. poko-hunter
If you're going to stick to your story of a belief in a higher being, you either line up to our forefathers and get a goat now, or chose no.2

because the LAW OF BLLOD SACRIFICE FOR RECINCILIATION TO GOD IS UNIVERSAL!not christian only.
we only claim that our sacrifice was eternal and purer than a goat.

but one way orthe other, any of them is better than is better than this poko-huntism religion. we're clear.

cheers

[reggie_woic]

...poko-huntism?

[poko-hunter]

Originally Posted by Ndumbai

Mr Poko- hunter.
congatulations.
You believe there is a God, but you have never seen or touched him as you claim to be the prove of existance.
Right.
Just a summary of your own statements.
so we've established you're not an aetheist.

you know what that is called? faith.

the kikuyus had it, Kaleos had it, way before the bible. only that bible authors blogged on leather materials called scrolls. that's why we read it today.

so lets see how poko-huntism is unique.
we will look at the similarities in all african, native, christian and even devil worshipping cults have in comon,all except poko-huntism.

all the above believe that:
1. There is a God
2. He is holy, without evil and cannot be mixed or associatde with evil.
3. He knows everything, including our names.
4.He watches us.
5. when we wrong him, or are defiled, the only way to get to him is through blood sacrifice - teh death of al iving creature.

So. Mr.Poko-hunter
of course assuming christianity is wrong, when did you last make a blood sacrifice to atone to God?

what?
never?
are you saying now that along with christianity, even our native beliefs were wrong and despite their incredible coincidence, it is not necessary to give a blood sacrifice for atoning with God?

That or you're Holy. poko-huntism teachings i assume.

well, suppuse you get the point that you cannot believe in God and not require a blood sacrifice to be right with him, which one would you choose:

1. the blood of a goat - the kikuyu or kao or samoan way.
2.The blood of a man, (already offered, by the way) whose coming was foretold, and history bears evidence of his affiliation to a super being.

Mr. poko-hunter
If you're going to stick to your story of a belief in a higher being, you either line up to our forefathers and get a goat now, or chose no.2

because the LAW OF BLLOD SACRIFICE FOR RECINCILIATION TO GOD IS UNIVERSAL!not christian only.
we only claim that our sacrifice was eternal and purer than a goat.

but one way orthe other, any of them is better than is better than this poko-huntism religion. we're clear.

cheers

Mr. Ndumbai, i will neither eat 'the body of Christ' nor 'sacrifice a goat.'

my opinion is that there is no 'true' religion. as individuals, some of us have accepted to be deceived only because without religion, they have no hope in life.

someone once told me that if you lose hope, you have lost your soul.