[ATLian]

Originally Posted by reggie_woic

(I'm sure ATLian just had an orgasm....lol)

Reggie,

nah, I need a woman for that... BTW I pasted your exact same paste them days on Mashada. That's one of the first questions that come about to challenge god's omnipotence. But since you're talking about god and orgasms, here's a little something to think about:

CAN GOD HAVE AN ORGASM?
By George H. Smith

Can God have an orgasm? The mere posing of the question is bound to
offend the religious sensibility of many people, and many would refuse
even to consider the question from fear that God - who is privy to
their every thought - would seriously disapprove of any such
blasphemous curiosity. But this question raises a serious problem
about the nature of God that dates back to the skeptics of ancient
Greece.

If we suppose that God can feel physical sensations of any kind, then
we must also suppose that God is a corporal entity, a physical
organism with the capacity to experience sensations. And this
supposition, aside from conflicting with the notion that God is a
purely spiritual being, carries with it the disturbing implication
that God is subject to change and so cannot be immutable. To
experience a sensation, after all, is to experience a change from one
state to another, so if God is able to feel anything we cannot regard
him as immutable, because this means the absence of any change
whatsoever.

Moreover, the notion that God can feel sensations and is therefore
subject to change is clearly incompatible with the absolute perfection
of God. For consider: If we suppose God to be perfect, then any change
must necessarily be for the worse, after which he will no longer be
perfect. If, on the other hand, we suppose that any change in God is
necessarily for the better, then this means that God was less than
perfect prior to the change.

These and similar arguments were first proposed by the skeptics of
ancient Greece, who showed that the traditional conception of God (or
the gods) is self-contradictory and therefore incoherent. The only way
out of this conceptual morass is to say that God, who never changes,
does not experience sensations or feelings of any kind, as we
understand those terms. But this assumption brings with it a new set
of problems. For example, if God is unable to experience pain, then
there is at least one thing that we humans (who are quite familiar
with this sensation) know that God does not, in which case God cannot
be omniscient. For we can never know the meaning of "pain" unless we
have experienced this sensation for ourselves. "Pain" must be defined
ostensively, i.e., through direct experience, so a being who has never
felt pain can never know the meaning of "pain."

Thus if God has never felt physical sensations of any kind, then there
are many things of which he is necessarily ignorant, things that are
known to his creatures but not to their creator. Most people have
experienced an orgasm, but can the same be said of God? If the answer
is yes, then we confront the previously discussed conflict between
change and immutability, as well as that between change and
perfection. If the answer is no, then we might ask why God has never
had an orgasm. Is this because he will not or because he cannot have
this experience? In the former case, although many things are
presently unknown to God, he could acquire this knowledge if he so
chose. In the latter case, God is forever barred from knowing many
things that we humans know quite well. In either case, however, God
cannot be all-knowing, because he must totally ignorant of sensory
knowledge.

[ATLian]

HI ATLIAN... you have all these questions cos, you do not understand... instead of debating...about Christianity...

Wam,

your statement makes no sense. Isn't one meant to question what one doesn't understand, and debate what one understands? Also what makes you think that I don't understand only because I don't believe in what you believe in?



I hve just afew questions....
have you ever really suffered? ever been sick? ever had someone in your family die? ever lost all you own? ....

Yes to all your questions apart from the last one



but incase any odf these adversities were to take place in your life.... do you solve your problems on your own human strength?
I would like to see you, when things are so tough n you can't help your self.. who will you call for help? where will your pride be then? your buddies, your mummy, daddy, or your financial assistantt? guess, what, Human beings are limited... they can't save ya, from the fowler's snare...

It depends on what the problem is. If I had screwed up and was about to get deported, I'd consult an immigration lawyer. If a family member was sick, I'd take him to a doctor. If I was overweight, I'd join a gym and start dieting. If I had screwed up my finances, I'd consult a financial consultant to see how I can get back on track. etc etc etc. To put it simply - there is absolutely no problem in my life that I turn to god to help me out with. Why? Because I do not believe god exists! Period!

BTW humans can save you from a snare!

I assume you're one of those saved chics who pray for everything. I can understand why a Christian would pray to god to cure their sick child. I can't understand why god would have to wait until he's asked in a prayer before he started curing the sick child, or why he created the pathogens that got the child sick in the first place!



anyways... I will not argue or debate with a PRIDEFUL, HARDENED MIND, DARK HEARTENED UNBELIEVER... its a waste of my time..

I like how you write this - then you add an entire page of dialogue. What makes you think I'm arrogant? Because I don't believe in something which has no tangible evidence to prove it's existence? Why do you think I'm dark "heartened" while I'm the one who's always preaching and ranting and raving about saving innocent little babies and who's all about protecting women's rights?


you have simply REJECTED THE TRUTH, I HAVE ACCEPTED IT...

That's a very arrogant assumption. You assume that of all the possibilities that exist, your specific way is the one and only truth, and all others (including mine) are wrong. Prove to me that what you believe in is the only truth out there!



my dear, I am HUMBLED. COS, ITS not in my own strength, that I can see hear, walk n breath... its not in my OWN STRENGTH, that I am alive today...
I AM HUMBLED BECAUSE i AM LIMITED.... have zero power.. over anything... everything I ahave, am, comes from my provider, God, whom I am wise enough to believe in.. the one who has ses from here to eternity is mt Redeemer... my Savior...

It amazes me that god is meant to be all about humility when he requires his followers to praise him and adore him and kiss his butt every day. Good job with your accolades above, I'm sure god is smiling down on you now and isn't too pissed off at you for Eve eating the fruit.

Anyway, the number one thing every religion needs to do is to make it's followers believe that they are absolutely worthless pieces of crap who can only be saved by believing in a particular god. The more you believe that you're a pathetic useless human being who only blinks, sweats, gulps and grows toe nails because an almighty god is merciful enough to allow you that priviledge, then the more likely you are to be a devout believer. You are a perfect example of this. And you are hoping to do well enough on earth so you can repeat those same praises forever and ever in heaven? Damn!

What really pains me is that people like you will feed this exact same hogwash to your kids. Your kids will be raised believing that they are nothing but garbage who exist despite Eve's sin only because god is so so merciful, and that without his mercy the kids are undeserving of life.

I'm so so happy that I am not bogged down by such archaic and destructive beliefs. I don't believe for one second that I breath only because god lets me. My kids will be raised knowing that they are beautiful individuals who can do whatever they set their minds to. They will never be bogged down with being called Evil because of what Adam and Eve did, and having to be cleansed each day with prayer despite having committed no evils. Ironically, I think I'm saved coz I'm saved from believing all that negative dehumanising takataka that has destroyed so many people!



HE LOVES US ALL UNCONDITIONALLY...

That's 100% untrue. God loves you only if you fulfil certain conditions. Anybody who doesn't fulfil those conditions is a sinner who will burn forever in hell!



I have only sadness for folks like you, not anger...

Please spare me the pity, I don't need it, I' as happy as one can be with my current status quo. As you kneel down tonight and tomorrow morning to yet again remind god just how pathetic a human being you are, and how you are thankful to him for killing his son to save you, I'll be relaxing, very OK in doing what it is that I do. But since you are so full of sadness and mercy, I can forward you tons of websites for people who really really need your pity and prayers. Let me know if you're interested!



YOU SEE what people do.. they create their own God in their minds..

That's the first thing we both agree upon. God is nothing but a figment of man's imagination. Man made god in his own image - which is why the Jewish god was a Jew, the Indian gods are Indians, etc etc etc. Like "they" say, "if triangles had a god, he'd have 3 side!"

[Death]

Originally Posted by ATLian

It amazes me that god is meant to be all about humility when he requires his followers to praise him and adore him and kiss his butt every day. Good job with your accolades above, I'm sure god is smiling down on you now and isn't too pissed off at you for Eve eating the fruit.

This reminds me of a quote by some famous coach. Basically it goes something like this:

"A good coach, will in times of failure, bear all the responsibility, and in times of success, give all the praise to his players"

By this definition, god is quite possibly the worst coach in the history of the world. This guy takes ALL THE GLORY for any achievements by man, and takes ZERO responsibility for any of our failures....WTF???

[Dynamic]

Poko- I see you're still going strong, bro. All good. Anywho- moving on swiftly, I've skimmed through some of y'all's responses to Poko's quiery/confussion about the validity and truth in Christianity. I am a Christian, and took me a long time to root myself in my faith. First- those of you who were like "have faith in what..." etc, faith is nothing tangible. Ok- so we humans in our quest toward our so called "enlightenment and illumination" have resolved that if our eyes cannot see it then it doesn't exist or there's no truth in it. We have also rulled out any existence outside our own mortality and the finite surroundings we see through these two holes on our heads. I could stage an arguement in opposition to Poko's disposition, but we'll wind up going in circles, people getting offended etc, so I'll simply put it this way. You spend a considerable amount of intellectual energy refuting the existence of God, the truth in Jesus, and Christianity as a religion. Truth be told, we, Christians, have a history blotted with dirt all in the name of Christ as it were. Before you are too quick to ask "why do Christians do/did all these things in Christ?" scrutinize this issue with considerable thought. We are human. We have pursued our own selfish pursuits, killed, even tried to wipe out entire enthinicities in the name of our respective gods. But if you have an idea of God's tenets, it's absolute that He couldn't condone these autrocities we comit among ourselves and each other in His name. "So why does He let all these things happen anyway?", you ask. Well we are born rebellious... an instinct that's myred us within since sin came about and we lost our way. God intervened in days past when things like these happened, until Christ came about. We needed a Saviour, one who in HIs blood could transcend mortality, and save our very souls. But at what price? Simply acknowledge from whence we came, repent, and return to that path. After all, those of you who are bent on refuting God/Christ's existence and truth, which is better? To keep fighting this truth just to find out later that God truly does exist and you're late, or to simply embrace the mistery, enjoy the truth as it's revealied to you and you become transformed, and be safe when He returns?

[wam7]

SOORRY GUYS.. you ALL SOUND TOO SURE N ARE CONVINCED TOTALLY THAT YOUR LIMITED HUMAN POWER can do everthying for you. apart from God.
there is a time in our lives, when we face adversity, n no matter what we do we are drawn into a complete state of HELPLESSNESS and no man can save us..... we could not even save save ourselves from sin... Jesus Christ had to come n save us.. but anyway,
guys, As a Christian, I will not urgue with you, nor try n force you into believing anything... God will do the rest in His own way... I have done my part.. its my commission. When I tell folks, Jesus died on the cross to redeem them, to save their lost souls, to give them a chance at eternal life, n they respond back with insults, some even goin to the point of insulting God.. As much as it hurts me, I am reminded what God says in the proverbs, that the things of God are foolish to the lost... All I can say to ATHEISTS , AGNOSTICS, IS THIS.... YOU WILL NEVER BE SMARTER THAN GOD WHO CREATED YOU... NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO... My only advice, is to humble yourselves, before the KING OF THE UNIVERSE, THE ONE WHO SPOKE LIGHT OVER DARKNESS, THE ONE WHO CREATED YOU... THE EVERLASTING FATHER... we are just dust... in a sec... we can perish .. we perish daily, through all manner of ways, illness, terrorists, attacks, car wrecks..etc, n etc; . at this very sec, someone has just died somewhere out there.. we are just perishing beings... as long as we are who we are.. LIMITED, POWERLESS HUMAN BEINGS... It is wise to be humbled... not try to outsmart God... lets not live the Devil's lie... who puts us in a position to feel we know everything...
anyways, guys... its very simple... ACCEPT YOUR SAVIOR, LOVE YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER, HONOR HIM, and live an extraordinary life... coz its an any sec; we perish... just be ready to face your Creator...before you do, make sure you have bowed your knees your toungue has confessed, that Christ is LORD...Tommorrow is not promised to anybody...
ALL I can say is , if you feel like cursing me cos of this article well n good... just remember, not to waste too much of your time doin so..am just a messenger, delivering a messenge of love.... my employer is my Creator, who knows I mean well for all'ya...

[murugaz]

yeah you go wam!! wacha tuendelee kumsifu na kumwabudu Bwana!! even tho they say were kissing his butt! kwani whats wrong with showing love to He who gave all mankind the breath of life? ningependa wale wote wanaosema kwamba ukristo ni fake wanieleze watakapoenda wakufavyo.

[youngben]

Originally Posted by reggie_woic

i applaud your strong beliefs, wam.

check this out:
can God create a stone he cannot lift?
if yes, that means that he is not all powerful, because he cannot lift it.
if no, that means that he is not all powerful, because he cannot create it.
therefore God is not all powerful.

what do you think, wam?

(I'm sure ATLian just had an orgasm....lol)

Manze this statement is so wrong just by its structure.

Can God create a stone he cannot lift?
Whats the goal - stone he cannot lift. (thats the parameter, the KPI)
So Yes, he creates one and he cannot lift it
parameter 1 has been quenched, The KPI (key performance indicator) has been achieved, he cannot lift the stone.

Creating and lifting it are not related with regards to power, which is greater than he can create such a stone, or he cannot lift it??

And No he cannot create it, meaning he is so powerful that he cannot even fathom how to go about creating something greater than himself as he is almighty.

So both Yes and No are argumentatively correct, though No would hold more water (I think)

[youngben]

Originally Posted by Kigan

Quoting youngben,

In addition Moses possessed the same power the priests did. You remember the snake incident, where moses' staff turned into a snake and ate the other priests staffs turned into snakes - If you really think about it. How did those spirits turn their staffs into snakes?? Can you attribute this to the devil?? And if so why attribute Moses' miracle to God?? And what would be the miracle, the other priests did the same??

Your question arising here:
And if so why attribute Moses' miracle to God??

Well, Pharaoh's magicians attributed it to God.

Exodus 8:19 The magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God."

that seems quite clear to me.

And yes, i would also attribute the magicians miracles to the devil, unless,of course, you want to argue teh devil has no supernatural powers.

But logically, why would the devil even enter into a contest with himself? i wonder why you would think satan was busy fighting himself on two sides, trying to prove to himself how he can make snakes.

Luke 11:18
If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub

@kigan - Why would the devil not enter into contest with himself, I have read some books and even literature where there seems to be a war amongst evil practitioners, witch/wizard A Vs Witch wizard B. Again in other incidences, why go to another mganga, kutolewa urogi, and it works (so its claimed).

Are there no christian churches and movements fighting each other, what about sunnis and Shiites in Islam - Wake up and smell the coffee, do not repeat rhetoric you cant defend, of course one is wrong, but the clinker is who is it?

Secondly, I have highlighted in red above. "this is the finger of God"
This is just an issue of reporting, i will give one example.

Remember 2002 elections.
Moi had multitudes of Wananchi attending his rallys while the opposition had curious onlookers and wananchi, it all depends on which station you were tuned to. (Hope my msg got home)

[youngben]

@teejay

Quoting YB

You wrote, The writing on the wall was written before many people, believers and non believers. Unlike Moses who came with tablets saying that God had written them.

In your view the definition of the word witness is limited to pluralism and thus absolutely disregards Monoism. You are telling me that if your own dad sent your younger sibling to pass to you some orders then your brother’s report is null because he came alone. You prefer that your sister accompany him for the message to be authentic. Laughable!

Actually am amused at your interpretation, having had the opportunity to study some key sociology units I understand wholly from where Moses was coming from, the man was frustrated and the guys were uncontrollable.

Angalia your logic, i know my dad, i would know what he would send my bro or sis to tell me (By this I mean the realm of possibilities of what he would say). Am sure you must be aware of such words as corroboration. Are you the kind who if your bro said "daddy amesema tukule ile kuku ya wageni leo" you would do it?

[youngben]

@Teejay

Quoting YB

You wrote, Do you know Moses was an Egyptian prince? and did you know that politics and Religion in ancient Egypt were married? i.e. the king was the High priest – so if you were considered royal as Moses was and was a prince you were also in the high hierarchy of the ancient Egyptian religion. Will it surprise you if I was to tell you that the Ten Commandments are amongst the over 100 rules and commandments of the Egyptians that Moses would have been privy to.

Your sense of humour must only be accorded the hilarity it deserves. See how you leave me with no choice but to subject my rib cage to some serious exercise.

How does the following become an integral part of Egyptian religion

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.

For someone who seems to be painstakingly detailed your lack of basic reference is appalling, by what you write its obvious you are choosing not to engage your thoughts 100% - Let me jog your memory. Its is widely believed the concept of the wholly trinity came from the egyptians. Egyptians had one supreme God Rah and then 2 subordiantes, empirical googling will ascertain this

2. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing love to thousands who love Me and keep My commandments.

Egyptians did not worship graven images my friend, they had statues to remind them of their Gods, but did not worship them during the era attributed to Moses, same as catholics and there statues


We all know that the Pharaohs had a penchant for over dozen gods. You have forgotten the reason all Egyptian Firstborns were cut off life.

Sabbath in the fourth commandment was not a pharaonic institution YB.

Thats jewish, it had to be there for authnitication, it was there before, it instuitionlised the commandments as a way of life, refer to the quran in such instiuitionalisations ' you shall not eat pork'. again seven is mystical in religion - google it

Origin of the 10 Commandment: Not Egypt, but Heaven.


Christ himself acknowledges that, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law." Matthew 5:18, a definite indication that the law of God, being a revelation of His will, a transcript of His character, must forever endure, as a faithful witness in heaven. We know that the reign of Pharaohs ended but the Law of God remaineth.

There is no history in the bible that says Moses, even if we assumed, was privy to the Egyptian Laws, He left hurried he could not even have copies of them. And secondly Moses never new that he’d be a leader of the Jacobites. A discussion of him with God by the Burning bush irons this. He laments to God regarding his oratory skills, which he thinks, makes him an imperfect choice for the task being assigned to him. Thus the thought of Egyptian laws lingered nowhere in his mind. Thirdly God has revealed his Characters in his Laws, there is no way he’d let Moses to design his own directives and disguise them His (God’s), Suffice to say that the laws being a leaf from a pagan religion of the Pharaohs would have been offensive to God. Need I remind of a story in the bible in which a statue God placed next the Ark of God’s Testament kept on falling face first. The things of God must remain pure.

I have seen so many quotations from you Teejay, are you a pastor? or when you see thread you want to argue out do you open your bible from page 1? whether you are a pastor or not Do you know you can memorise a lot of scripture if you want to, in addition you still went through kawaida school and had other things to learn, now imagine someone whose sole responsibility was to learn the religion as he was destined to be a priest, day in day out for over 30 years. Your comment also displays ignorance in the propagation of information orally in these times, so as far as we know Moses could have had the whole egyptian 'bible' in his head.

The Decalogue therefore cannot have been a result of some well thought out and a carefully crafted document by Moses.
What about Moses being Prince and by that virtue priest as demanded by the laws of Egypt? Read Hebrews Hebrews 11:24-26. Then also Read Exodus 2.

We discover that it was His own mother- Hebrew who raised him up to age 12 before fully handing him over to Egypt. Again we see from the above verses that a time came when he despised being called Son of Pharaoh’s daughter. Now, I don’t know about you but according to me, a mother holds in her own hands the destiny of her children. She is dealing with developing minds and characters, working not alone for time, but for eternity. She is sowing seed that will spring up and bear fruit, either for good or for evil. She has not to paint a form of beauty upon canvas or to chisel it from marble, but to impress upon a human soul the image of the divine. Especially during their early years the responsibility rests upon her of forming the character of her children. The impressions now made upon their developing minds will remain with them all through life. Parents should direct the instruction and training of their children while very young, to the end that they may be (good) Christians/ or in the case of Moses God fearing. They are placed in Parents’ care to be trained, not as heirs to the throne of an earthly empire, but as kings unto God, to reign through unending ages.

Moses’ Mother in being asked to raise him found an opportunity to educate her child for God. She endeavored to imbue his mind with the fear of God and the love of truth and justice, and earnestly prayed that he might be preserved from every corrupting influence by showing Moses the folly and sin of idolatry, and early taught him to bow down and pray to the living God, who alone could hear him and help him in every emergency. This is why Moses did not forget his roots as indicated in the Murder scene, Exodus 2:11-12.

In my view his early childhood interaction with his mother, taught him to disrespect Egyptian religious chores, thus he did not become a priest. Had felt at home with the Egypt nothing would have prevented him from using his influence as a prince to cover up for the murder, better yet he would not dare to touch any Egyptian foreman tormenting the Jacobites.

Again this is a matter of the storyteller, its called poetic licences nowadays, I will elaborate this soon