[milanya]

Volina...did u ever hear the quote "People generally quarrel because they cannot argue?" Don't hurl insults coz someone challenged the foundations of your life, you almost prove his point by doing so. This is not a personal attack Volina, just a word of advice. As a Christian you will always meet pple that argue with you, and you've got to be able to handle yourself better.

Life's not a garden so don't be a hoe

[youngben]

There is a story that actually was made into a TV drama about a monkeys foot, some doggone years back, basically the premise of the movie was “be careful what you wish / pray for” this was so especially if was to change your destiny.

My freedom starts where yours ends, that’s is true for everyone, its also the same in destiny, mine lives where yours ends, it’s the irony of life, If we think about it, when we Christians pray for more money and wealth (am using Christians coz there is a lot of that lately, its not unique), one thing that will never happen is, God will never make someone poorer to make you richer, economy lets us know that wealth and money is a limited resource so it goes that for one to gain something someone else is loosing something else, whether one individual or many, basically speaking. Ya mwenzie usilalie nje, so they say

I now get back to my kaprogie, this monkey’s foot could give 3 wishes, but what was not known was, like life it could not influence any other person or disadvantage any individual outside your realm of control. In short one mama and papa prayed for x amount of money for holiday, they got it, this was because their son the same night was working night shift in a factory and was killed by a grinding machine. The insurance quickly paid the claim plus adjustments and ‘voila’ it was the same amount they had wished for.

Death and ATLian have a valid arguments on prayer

@teejay – Jesus himself told God to take this cup from him if its his will, it was his will and he did not change it even for the “son, in whom he was well pleased”. By the way a question for you - If the bible does not say it then is it not true? Just curious

@ATLian, Death – then again if God knows destinies, then he knows you will pray hard, meaning he can purposely give you a sickness so that as per destiny if you were to get well, then you praise him, although I wonder why he would need praise from us.

[ATLian]

>ATlian
>
>Can we get some biblical excerpts to support your view so that
>we can begin taking you and your analogies seriously.

TeeJay,

I'm not sure what you mean. You want me to show you a verse in the Bible that says prayer doesn't work or what?

My view is very simple. God will NEVER EVER change the perfect plan he outlined for you years ago. So why ask him to change it?

But hey, TeeJay, you go ahead and pray all you want. Go ahead and chant "Everything happens according to god's plan" then with the next breath ask god to make things happen to TeeJay's plan. I just think it's dumb, and that's why i don't waste my time on prayer.

[reggie_woic]

prayer = an expression of hope

[ATLian]

Reggie,

it's a bit more than that. To quote Wikipedia, "Prayer is an active effort to communicate with a deity or spirit either to offer praise, to make a request, seek guidance, confess sins, or simply to express one's thoughts and emotions."

By far and away the Number One reason people pray is to make a request when things are thick. That's why there are 10,000 prayers at Kenyatta National Hospital for every prayer uttered at Hugh Hefner's Playbow Mansion. And that's the part of prayer I think makes absolutely no sense, and which cannot work.

BTW why did Jesus used to pray? I mean, he was god, right? Therefore he was praying to himself, right? What the heck would he ask himself when he was praying? Plus since he knew everything - the past, present and future - plus how things were going to be played out, what was he praying for? It's like me praying to me. Plus since god = Jesus = Holy Spirit, then we can deduce that at times the Jesus who was praying to god was actually god praying to Jesus, ama to the Holy Spirit. So what the heck is god praying for? The whole thing doesn't make sense at all.

I sometimes wish i could do like TeeJay and dig a hole in that sandpit called Christianity then bury my head deep inside it and totaly ignore all the glaring fallacies and contradictions.

[milanya]

Nowadays I pray to God asking him for patience and strength to deal with whatever happens...this prayer thing I have been unable to wrap my mind around...I'm workin' on it.

[reggie_woic]

ok, ATLian

i see now that prayers are baseless and useless in regard to THE END RESULT ONLY (which is determined by the laws of nature)

look at it this way:
if you happen to be in front of a speeding truck and it hits you, you die, prayer or not.

but before the truck hits you, you may express a hope that perhaps you live by some chance, or that your family goes on well without you, or that you go to a better place after your death...etc.

you may probably find this to be foolish, but as christians, we feel a sense of safety and solace by expressing these hopes to God, irregardless of the end result.

that "feeling" that we get is not useless OR baseless to us




...then again, you can get this "feeling" without directing your hopes to God. so why bother?...?

end result with God = end result without God
i believe i just contradicted myself..

[ATLian]

Reggie,

I'm not in any way arguing that prayers do not soothe people or give them comfort. It's a fact that many people feel relieved and relaxed after praying because they believe that matters are now in god's hands.

What I am saying is that what you pray for will not be given UNLESS what you pray for was what god already planned to happen. If god planned for you to be born, raised and die in abject poverty in Mathare slums, then no amount of prayer will make you rich. If he had planned for you to get a good education, then a good job, then you move to Muthaiga, then even if you never utter a word of prayer, it will happen.

So if you pray for comfort and relief, good for you, but if you pray for actions, then you are wasting your time.

BTW if a truck is about to crush me, my words are most likely to be in the tune of "What the ***c" than "Oh god help me".