[biashara]

I really need answers from brothers and sisters out there. I am born again and I love to follow the Lord's teachings but some things are just confusing. For instance, If a sister lived with a non-believing husband who didn't love her, and this guy dishes out all sorts of matharau but our sister-in-christ keeps forgiving because separation or divorce is not Christly. Should this be allowed to go on?
Besides, how do you treat someone with Christ's standard while the same person treats you with worldly standards?

[milanya]

Unless you are Catholic, most Christians agree that the bible dicourages but does not forbid divorce. I don't see why a woman should live with a man who beats her in the name of being Christian.

Life's not a garden so don't be a hoe

[teejay]

Biashara, I think that by the fact that a woman was created from the ribs of a man does is enough evidence to show show us that she was not meant to be stepped over by her husband nor be above her husband, but both should respect each other as equal beings, thus to mistreat your wife means to disrespect not only her but God.

Let us look at what the bible says about marriage.Marriage is a permanent, committed partnership between a man and a woman. Matthew 19:5-6. How then should the couple relate to one one another? The bible says that "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing"-Eph 5:22-24

Does that mean the wife must do all the "give and take"? No! Marriage requires submission by both partners. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Eph 5:21

What about men? "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself."-Eph 5:25-28 Also see I Peter 3:7

What about those are married to unbelivers? The bible says, "But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

From the above teachings we have seen that either marriages are recorgnised by the bible. I therefore feel that mistreatment shuld not occur in any of them. Neither spouse must harm the other bu they should strive to Keep the relationship growing in unity and understanding."With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace"- Eph 4:2-3. Also see Colossians 3:19 and Ephesians 4:26,regarding marital abuse.

Let us now look at what the bible say about Divorce.Romans 7:2 Talks about the length of marriage. "For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband."

Then when is divorce permitted? "Christ recognizes only one valid ground for divorce-Matthew 5:32"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." But if a spouse wants out of the marriage for any other reason then the bible says that such should not remarry.1 Corinth 7:10-11, And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife."

We therefore see that separation is most appropriate for sisters or brothers in abusive marriages,maybe to get some break from abuse. Forgiveness must however be a key tool used towards reconcilling shaky marriages. In the separation a spouse may realise their mistake seek forgiveness and return home.

I hope that my two cent will be of help to you, biashra. God bless

[biashara]

@ milanya
What if physical violence nolonger exists?

@ teejay
I do understand the position of the church in relation to divorce and this is where it gets tricky;
- you can divorce but not remarry. At 30 this is a joke!
- if you do remarry then it has to be after your ex is dead. What?
- you reconcile with your non-believing ex. I mean, what's the point of divorcing in the first place!
- and finally, if you choose not to remarry you are bound to fornicate or commit one of those other sexual sins. Even thinking it is a sin!

Teejay, you have also explained what a christian is supposed to do with reference to the bible, what you do not realise is that the non-believer is not bound by those rules. It's a different ball game altogether.

[biashara]

@ teejay
I do understand the position of the church in relation to divorce and this is where it gets tricky;
- you can divorce but not remarry. At 30 this is a joke!
- if you do remarry then it has to be after your ex is dead. What?
- you reconcile with your non-believing ex. I mean, what's the point of divorcing in the first place!
- and finally, if you choose not to remarry you are bound to fornicate or commit one of those other sexual sins. Even thinking it is a sin!

Teejay, you have also explained what a christian is supposed to do with reference to the bible, what you do not realise is that the non-believer is not bound by those rules. It's a different ball game altogether.

[biashara]

@ teejay
I do understand the position of the church in relation to divorce and this is where it gets tricky;
- you can divorce but not remarry. At 30 this is a joke!
- if you do remarry then it has to be after your ex is dead. What?
- you reconcile with your non-believing ex. I mean, what's the point of divorcing in the first place!
- and finally, if you choose not to remarry you are bound to fornicate or commit one of those other sexual sins. Even thinking it is a sin!

Teejay, you have also explained what a christian is supposed to do with reference to the bible, what you do not realise is that the non-believer is not bound by those rules. It's a different ball game altogether.

[Whitehead]

The reason why Christ died for you on the cross is so that you as a believer do not ever have to go through his suffering again. That means that Christ already absorbed all the abuse for you so that you do not have to put up with abuse just because you are a Christian.

As a Christian your obligation is to stomach what you can when dealing with other people but when you have done what you can, even God will understand if you give a slap in return for one. That is why you confess before you go to bed because God knows that you are living amongst very cruel sinners. Your only obligation is to "confess" usiku and call it a day.

With regards to the question of relating to unbelievers romantically, well, the thing is that it is possible to have a relationship with a non-believer. Only problem is its twice as hard because the points of conflict are amplified. That is why most denominations encourage their members to marry within the group. The conflicts that can arise due to religious differences are akin to other marriage conflicts that arise out of class differences, intellectual differences, IQ differences..the whole rainbow.

In a nutshell my friend, take one day at a time. If you feel that you have had enough with your spouse even God will understand if you tell them to rot in hell.

And before you follow any of my recommendations..PRAY!

God works miracles.

Whitehead.

[ATLian]

Biashara,

According to Christianity, the only reason you should divorce is (as shown by the posters above) in the case of adultery. Anything else isn't a reason to divorce. Therefore if you have a husband who beats you, is verbally and psycholigically abusive, doesn't provide for you and your kids, takes drugs, doesn't provide you with your conjugal rights, molests your children physically and verbally, etc but who DOES NOT cheat on you, you're meant to stay with him until you die. You can be a 20 year old bride, but according to Christianity you are meant to chain yourself to this loser till his death, even if that occurs when you are 70 years old. I totally disagree with this.

I think that some things go beyond religion and are now in the realm of common sense. The Bible says you should stone to death those who work on the sabbath. Obviously you won't do that. Neither will you stone to death gays. So if you can overlok such archaic laws, why can't you overlook what is obviously a very unpractical rule. A marriage, like anything else in life, can be a mistake. To chain yourself forever to an evil person because he fooled you into thinking he's nice is just ludicrous. To do so only because the Bible says so is even more ludicrous. You should never punish yourself for what someone else does wrong. As in, you shouldn't punish yourself by staying with an abusive sociopath. Reward youself and get someone who will treat you like you deserve. Too many women who stayed in abusive relationships have ended up dead.

The advice I always give my sisters is to never take crap from a guy. They're both smart, educated, career ladies and they do not deserve to go through any stupid crap and abuse from a guy, and if they do they should leave him. It's not about the Bible or whatever - it's about looking out for yourself, and what's best for you. If you can do it in all other aspects of life, I don't see why marriage should be different! Yes, you can forgive mistakes but you should also be smart enough to know when to walk away and when to keep forgiving.

Pole to preach. I just have a really serious issue with guys who abuse women, and women who take the abuse. I've had too many cousins and aunts suffer through turbulent abusive marriages and relationships, and they couldn't walk away because of culture and religion. It drove me nuts to watch my very saved grandfather command my seriously abused cousin to go back to her crazy violent alcoholic husband because the Bible is against divorce. You don't need to take that crap, least of all because it says so in the Bible. Tell your pal to liberate herself, or she might end up becomming a statistic one day.

[teejay]

Biashara, it is true that a non-believer isn't bound by the biblical obligations as far as marriage is conccerned. This is one reason I always say that the church should encourage brethrens to stick to the confines of her boundary whenever seeking marriage partners. While it not always true that a non-believer will mistreat their spouse, it is always prudent to ponder about the probability of the occurance of such an event. It indeed becomes tricky, but then again the fact that one is married to a non-believr does not relegate the union. It is still marriage. And all the rules must be observed by either partners as sworn by both the partners during the marital ceremony in the event that the marriage ceremony commenced under a different type of setting. In the meantime the believing partner must in the most loving manner commit her/his partner before God, with hope that God will shed his light to the partner.

My advice to those who are dating or are contemptlating to date non-belivers, are:-

1. It is unwise to date someone who doesn't love God. "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? "- II Corinthians 6:14-15.

2. "Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart."- II Timothy 2:2. This call teahing advices us on kind of person should you date.

3. Don't date someone who claims to be a Christian but doesn't live it. "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."- Corinthians 5:11.

It must also be made clear that for every action and desicion we choose to make we must always expect the result, either ugly or pleasant. When we choose to seek marriage to unbelievers we are simply accepting the "goodies" that come with it. I am not trying to say here that there are no troubles in christian marital unions. There are and sometimes they escalate to unfortunate ends. All we need to know is that if we stick to what the bible says about the manner in which we should live with our spouses, then whatever trouble that comes your way, will always be nothing but just a small intermittence.

Should you have proceeded far with the relationship between you and the non believer ,then look up unto God and seek his pardon.

[ATLian]

TeeJay,

your advice is just not practical.

Assume you have a sister who marries at a very young age (say, 25 years) to the kind of monster I describe above - a "man" who beats her, is verbally and psychologically abusive, doesn't provide for her, takes drugs, doesn't provide her with her conjugal rights, molests children physically and verbally, etc but who DOES NOT cheat on her. Are you saying that you'd advice your sister to separate and never marry again until he dies (which might be when she's 99) only because the Bible says so? Are you saying that you'd prefer that she stays single, never knows the love or companionship of another man, never has sex, never gets to have children and never gets to start a family ONLY BECAUSE of the cruel behavior towards her by someone else? Do you actually believe that that is what god prefers? Do you realize that under your way of reasoning, your sister (who may be the nicest most loving person out there) will get punished for the rest of her life by being denied what every woman wants in life just because she was unlucky enough to fall in love with a man who turned out to be abusive.

Please tell me I'm wrong.

Religion aside, I just don't see how any rational person can subscribe to such a way of thinking. I don't see why you should do something irrational just because the Bible says it. In Deuteronomy 22:11, god categorically states that you should not wear a garment made of mixed materials, specifically using the example of wool and linen. I can guarantee you that all devout Christians I know wear garments made of mixed materials. Heck, it's almost impossible to get a garment of purely one material these days, and if it is (like pure wool, pure silk, etc), it's going to be damn expensive. Which means that all those Christians break that specific law of god every single day!

TeeJay, you are (a self-proclaimed) devout Christian. Assume that you were in danger of freezing to death and all you had a choice of clothing - either get a 100% cotton T-Shirt or get a big heavy very warm winter jacket made of wool or linen. Which one would you grab? Would you use common sense and take the big jacket and in so doing violate a law god categorically stated in the Bible, or would you take the 100% cotton T-Shirt and end up enduring enough frost bite to necessitate that amputation on all your toes and fingers (or even freezing to death)?

I'm sure you'd grab the jacket. I'm sure we would all grab the jacket, regardless of our religious affiliation, level of education, amount of wealth we possess, etc. I'm sure that even a devout Christian like you would disregard what is obviously an illogical law and do what any person in his senses would do - wear the jacket. And I'm sure you'll train your children to do the same when faced with the same predicament. Even if the option was just to freeze for only 2 hours or be warm for the same 2 hours in the jacket, I'm sure you'd take the jacket.

So my question is - why is it that you want to take the jacket and be warm for the 2 hours, but you're very OK with Biashara's friend suffering in a horrible marriage for the rest of her husbands life (or hers, whichever comes first?) Why is it OK to break some illogical Biblical laws then insist on other tormented souls following yet another set of illogical Biblical laws?

I hope that you can put religion aside for one second so you can see my point.