[key-pusa]

Ever read or heard a story that made you wonder where God was when all this was happening? I remember when I was in high school, there were a lot of "saved" people and one of their favorite lines was "God lets everything happen for a reason, and he will never give you more than you can handle". Sounds easy enough. Everything happens for a reason. But what about some of the horrific nightmares people go through?

I heard this story about a young girl who grew up in an abusive home. From the time she was a kid, she was sexually abused by her dad, her caretakers, and a few other miscellaneous men and women along the way. She simply had nowhere to run to and nobody to protect her. When she was a teenager, she started going through a lot of soul-searching and questioning, wondering why she had to go through all that as a child. I guess she never did find her answer because she committed suicide at the age of 21, after years and years of searching.

So then where was God when this girl was being tortured, and worse still, when this girl was searching for answers? How the hell do you explain to someone that's been raped that it "happened for a reason" and God would never let that happen to her if He knew she couldn't deal with it?

The other standard answer christians like to give is "some things are beyond our human comprehension". That's not what I wanna hear. In a way, this is almost a rhetorical question. "Where is God when all these things happen?"

[reggie_woic]

http://www.mymac.com/avatars/stewie.gif

where was God?

same place he was when this man was in a car accident, trapped under a trailer in his crushed car for a few hours and came out completely unharmed. (the news a few days ago)

same place he was when a GRANDMOTHER saved her grandchild from a CROCODILE by fighting with it (and she won). (also in the news)

same place he was when that woman who fell from a plane hundreds of feet up high survived when she landed on snow. (guiness book of records)

same place he is when you woke up today (in your house), had something to eat and/drink, drove to work or school (safely), and get to your computer and question his existence.

that's where he is.
i'm sorry if you were looking for directions or an address.

i don't know if you've heard of it, but you should watch a series called "Joan Of Arcadia".

i didn't stutter.

[ATLian]

Reggie,

your answers are one of those Christian answers I always talk about - when it's good news, you know whats up with god. When it's bad news, you don't know. So when a grandmother fights off a crocodile to save her grandkid, to you it's because "god was present". If the kid had died, then suddenly no one knows why. I prefer rational answers, so I'd prefer to know more details. Maybe she blew the crocodile in half with a sawed-off shot-gun! Maybe the chic who fell from the plane landed in very deep powdered snow, which cushioned her fall. How then do you attribute that to a supernatural being?

Also, of every 100 grandmothers who fight a crocodile, 99 of them are viciously and violently shredded into mincemeat. Most times a trailer crushes a car, the unlucky chap in the car is also crushed to death. Of every 1000 guys who fall about 100 feet (wacha even the hundreds of feet you described above), 999 become part of the pavement. etc. If you claim that god's PRESENCE saved the people you mention above, then you must also claim that his ABSENCE doomed the people who didn't survive those incidents.

I think Key-Pusa's question is where is god during these times? When that chic she describes was being raped for her 100th time by the 10th different person, what was god doing? When those Tsunami waves are racing across those 600 miles of ocean to destroy 250,000 people, where is he? Like Key-Pusa mentioned, it's a rhetoric question....

[mboch]

In the same spot - "I AM WHO I AM".
God is ALWAYS there both in the joyous and the tragic times even though our naked eyes may not see it but a spiritual eye will understand it.
In the same way there is God or a Greater Being, also exists Greater Evil behind some of the inexplicable situations and horrifying crimes.
Our situations, painful as some of them are, dont necessarily mean that God wasn't there. It was the enemy at work and God's presence took backstage.
Its not humanly possible to understand God - His works, His presence, His gifts and His timing - otherwise some of us would probably try to be like Him.


Attitudes are contagious, mine might kill you !

[KEMINOKANA]

>your answers are one of those Christian answers I always talk
>about - when it's good news, you know whats up with god. When
>it's bad news, you don't know.

We can reverse that and say, anti religion stone throwers are always missing when God does good, but when it's bad knews, they fall over themselves to attribute it to God....even when the bad is caused by them.

I've seen people even blame God for intending to incarcerate them in hell. Tsk! A student goes to school, doesnt study and blames the headmaster for his failure???

But what is disorienting is the ignorance displayed by some of these stone throwers. Take for instance Katrina. I've seen some forumers blame God for it. The Sahara desert where hurricanes originate from was not created by God. It was made by man himself.

Back to the topic.

I cant defend God coz personally there are times I've felt let down by Him. However, when debating, you guys should be consistent. What did Abel do to Cain to deserve his brutal murder? Nothing!

If you want to blame God for anything and want to be consistent, the only time God could be blamed on things that befell/fall man is after creation and before adam and eve ate the fruit. After eating the fruit, humans opened their eyes to GOOD and BAD yet they had no powers to handle such responsibility. We opened our eyes to murder vs preserving life, rape vs consensual sex, lies vs truth, and etc. That is why we were told not to eat the fruit. Let's not shift the blame for the concequences that befell humankind.

If the world was without bad things happening, then this might as well be called heaven or Eden! We ate the fruit, got cursed and so things cant be all nice to everyone as though this is heaven. This aint no heaven. If you want a life without troubles, you've been told to do good and prepare urself for one that shall be trouble-free.

[Volina]

I do believe that everything happens for a reason. I wake up for a reason. Pple die for a reason. Everything in the world happens for a reason according to the parameters of God's will. Most things happen because of sin, now if you are going to build vehicles and make accident while driving and then question where was God my so and so died in that accident: where is God when pple die of HIV? God warns his people first of what is gonna happen and then we go ahead and let it happen. Now I know that there are natural disasters, etc like Hurricanes, volcanoes etc..tell me if there aint a warning that such and such will happen and pple sit there waiting for it:) Some things just happen because we have become like Sodom and Gomorrah:

----------------------------------------------------------------


Why do these tragedies happen:
People have given many rationales to explain what appear to be senseless tragedies. Many people find that none of them are particularly comforting:

We must trust God: God's ways are not our ways. We must trust that God took an action (or failed to prevent an event) for reasons which make sense to him. It was all part of God's plan. Someday, when we are in Heaven, all will be revealed to us; we will understand and be satisfied with the explanation. In the meantime, we have to trust that God had his reasons for doing (or not doing) what he did. We are not to question him.

The book of Job from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) describes how God arranged a wager with Satan. God bet Satan that Job, a man who was "perfect and an upright man, one that fears God and shuns evil..." 2 would curse God if he suffered sufficient loss, pain, and misfortune. God proceeded to destroy Job's house, kill his cattle, and kill all of his children. When Job complained to God about the unfairness of his suffering, God answered that it was not proper for humans to criticize God, 3 to "disannul [God's]...judgment" or "condemn" him. 4 Job finally admitted that he had "uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not." His faith in God was unshaken, even though he could not understand the reasons for the death of his children, and his pain and tribulation.
It was the result of sin in the Garden of Eden: When God created the world, it was good. There was no sin, no death, and no tragedy. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, sin entered the world for the first time. Death, disease, pain, and senseless tragedies were the result. They are with us still. We have all inherited the sins of our original ancestors.
The good die young: God sometimes decides that people are to die before their time because they are good, and pleased God. He takes them up into Heaven so that they would not be polluted by the evil which surrounds them in the world. The following quotation comes from the Wisdom of Solomon 4:10-15. It is one of the apocryphal books, which are not found in all Bibles:

"There were some who pleased God and were loved by Him, and while living among sinners were taken up. They were caught up so that evil might not change their understanding, or guile deceive their souls. For the fascination of wickedness obscures what is good, and roving desire perverts the innocent mind. Being perfected in a short time, they fulfilled long years; for their souls were pleasing to the Lord, therefore He took them quickly from the midst of wickedness. Yet the peoples saw and did not understand, to take such a thing to heart, that God's grace and mercy are with His elect, and that He watches over His Holy ones."

The bad die young: The tragedy is the result of personal sin. Some Christians believe that people who lead good lives live long on the earth and do not die until they are elderly. Conversely, those who have unconfessed sin in their lives die young because their actions stir up the wrath of God. God is viewed as a righteous judge who delivers justice to people; they get exactly what they deserve. The early parts of the Hebrew Scriptures (a.k.a. Old Testament) often reflect this belief. For example: Exodus 20:12: "Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee." The commandment promises a long life to those who honor their parents. It implies that those who do not honor their parents will die young. (King James Version)
Job 2:9: "...curse God and die." Job was suffering with painful "boils from the sole of his foot onto his crown." (KJV) His wife suggested that he end his suffering by cursing God. She expected that, if he did so, God would immediately strike him dead.
Job 4:9: Eliphaz, one of Job's friends, commented: "...who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off? Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish..." (KJV) That is, God causes the death of those who sin, and extends the life of the righteous.
Proverbs 12:21: "No grave trouble will overtake the righteous, but the wicked shall be filled with evil." (New King James translation)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_god01.htm

[Volina]

I do believe that everything happens for a reason. I wake up for a reason. Pple die for a reason. Everything in the world happens for a reason according to the parameters of God's will. Most things happen because of sin, now if you are going to build vehicles and make accident while driving and then question where was God my so and so died in that accident: where is God when pple die of HIV? God warns his people first of what is gonna happen and then we go ahead and let it happen. Now I know that there are natural disasters, etc like Hurricanes, volcanoes etc..tell me if there aint a warning that such and such will happen and pple sit there waiting for it:) Some things just happen because we have become like Sodom and Gomorrah:

----------------------------------------------------------------


Why do these tragedies happen:
People have given many rationales to explain what appear to be senseless tragedies. Many people find that none of them are particularly comforting:

We must trust God: God's ways are not our ways. We must trust that God took an action (or failed to prevent an event) for reasons which make sense to him. It was all part of God's plan. Someday, when we are in Heaven, all will be revealed to us; we will understand and be satisfied with the explanation. In the meantime, we have to trust that God had his reasons for doing (or not doing) what he did. We are not to question him.

The book of Job from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) describes how God arranged a wager with Satan. God bet Satan that Job, a man who was "perfect and an upright man, one that fears God and shuns evil..." 2 would curse God if he suffered sufficient loss, pain, and misfortune. God proceeded to destroy Job's house, kill his cattle, and kill all of his children. When Job complained to God about the unfairness of his suffering, God answered that it was not proper for humans to criticize God, 3 to "disannul [God's]...judgment" or "condemn" him. 4 Job finally admitted that he had "uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not." His faith in God was unshaken, even though he could not understand the reasons for the death of his children, and his pain and tribulation.
It was the result of sin in the Garden of Eden: When God created the world, it was good. There was no sin, no death, and no tragedy. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, sin entered the world for the first time. Death, disease, pain, and senseless tragedies were the result. They are with us still. We have all inherited the sins of our original ancestors.
The good die young: God sometimes decides that people are to die before their time because they are good, and pleased God. He takes them up into Heaven so that they would not be polluted by the evil which surrounds them in the world. The following quotation comes from the Wisdom of Solomon 4:10-15. It is one of the apocryphal books, which are not found in all Bibles:

"There were some who pleased God and were loved by Him, and while living among sinners were taken up. They were caught up so that evil might not change their understanding, or guile deceive their souls. For the fascination of wickedness obscures what is good, and roving desire perverts the innocent mind. Being perfected in a short time, they fulfilled long years; for their souls were pleasing to the Lord, therefore He took them quickly from the midst of wickedness. Yet the peoples saw and did not understand, to take such a thing to heart, that God's grace and mercy are with His elect, and that He watches over His Holy ones."

The bad die young: The tragedy is the result of personal sin. Some Christians believe that people who lead good lives live long on the earth and do not die until they are elderly. Conversely, those who have unconfessed sin in their lives die young because their actions stir up the wrath of God. God is viewed as a righteous judge who delivers justice to people; they get exactly what they deserve. The early parts of the Hebrew Scriptures (a.k.a. Old Testament) often reflect this belief. For example: Exodus 20:12: "Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee." The commandment promises a long life to those who honor their parents. It implies that those who do not honor their parents will die young. (King James Version)
Job 2:9: "...curse God and die." Job was suffering with painful "boils from the sole of his foot onto his crown." (KJV) His wife suggested that he end his suffering by cursing God. She expected that, if he did so, God would immediately strike him dead.
Job 4:9: Eliphaz, one of Job's friends, commented: "...who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off? Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish..." (KJV) That is, God causes the death of those who sin, and extends the life of the righteous.
Proverbs 12:21: "No grave trouble will overtake the righteous, but the wicked shall be filled with evil." (New King James translation)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_god01.htm

[ATLian]

>But what is disorienting is the ignorance displayed by some of
>these stone throwers. Take for instance Katrina. I've seen
>some forumers blame God for it. The Sahara desert where
>hurricanes originate from was not created by God. It was made
>by man himself.

I'm kinda ignorant when it comes to meteorology. How exactly does the Sahara Desert cause hurricanes? Also what do you mean that man made the Sahara desert?

[milanya]

I'm going to play devil's advocate, shoot the message, not the messenger:

Volina you said***************************
Most things happen because of sin, now if you are going to build vehicles and make accident while driving and then question where was God my so and so died in that accident: where is God when pple die of HIV? God warns his people first of what is gonna happen and then we go ahead and let it happen. Now I know that there are natural disasters, etc like Hurricanes, volcanoes etc..tell me if there aint a warning that such and such will happen and pple sit there waiting for it Some things just happen because we have become like Sodom and Gomorrah:*****************************************

I agree that a lot of things happen because of sin, but I disagree that everything that happens God warned us about.
If I get raped by my pastor, let's say I was working in my office at the church and he waited for people to go home and he walked into my office and overpowered me, yes he was sinful, but did God warn me that I was going to be raped that day?

Also, you say we make cars then blame God for car accidents. If I am driving home, in my 5-star crash rating Volkswagen and I have always been a good driver and Tom is driving home drunk from the bar in his monster Hummer and crashes into me and I die, it is my fault because man made cars? Did God warn me that Tom would kill me? Say it isbecause of Tom's sin but not because I warned and i refused to listen.

How about natural disasters, do you think the Indonesians were told "Hey a Tsunami is coming" and they sat there on Dec 26 waiting for it?

I think i agree a lot of things happen because of sin.

[reggie_woic]

sure there's a problem say for instance if a guy dies in a car crash.
but if he turns out to have been a suicide bomber on his way to some building, then reactions to his death change.

i say its all about the INTERCONNECTEDNESS OF LIVES.
your alarm clock's battery dies, your alarm doesn't go off, you wake up late, you're late for work at a bank, you find out that your bank was violently robbed and some guys were shot.
ebu tell me you'll complain that you missed work.

its like that saying : door closes, window opens
JOAN OF ARCADIA...DIDN'T ANYONE WATCH IT??